Discussion:
Hall of Fame
(too old to reply)
Grady
2004-02-24 20:17:34 UTC
Permalink
I'd like to see the results of all the voting for this year's and any
other year's HOF procedures.Billiards Digest and the BCA do things in
far too secretive a manner for my tastes.
It's about time that a really qualified panel of dignified experts,
100 per cent excluding industry magazine editors, was formed, for the
purpose of selecting HOF inductees.
This post isn't about me. I've come to the point where I could care
less about the machinations and deceit of the BCA and BD too, for that
matter.No, friends and pool lovers, this post is about "Bugs", Ronnie
Allen and Jersey Red not being in the HOF.
There exists no rationalization or sound basis for this. In fact, it's
insulting to have the BCA and BD love how Johnston City, gambling and
guys like "Bugs", Red and Ronnie played and excited thousands of fans
and then exclude them and their ilk from the HOF.
It's a disgrace, ladies and gentlemen and I'd like to begin a
groundswell movement to: a. Get these guys and some others inducted,
as they so richly deserve and b.Get rid of the 6 to 8 man comittee
that currently, in total secrecy as far as I know,conducts highly
suspicious voting for the HOF.
Thanks for your kind attention, Grady
JAM
2004-02-24 22:05:06 UTC
Permalink
Grady posts: [snip]

Hi, Grady. Hope all is well with you.

I've been hearing pros and cons of the BCA as of late. One prominent promoter
believes the BCA should get more involved in the pool scene, especially the
men's tour.

The BCA Hall of Fame Committe voting members consist of: Tom Shaw (chair),
Conrad Burkman, J.R. Calvert, John Nusser, Mike Panozzo, and Mike Shamos, a
nice blend of pool media folk.

The way I understand it, they vote on candidates provided to them by the
Industry members of the BCA. I am unable to locate the names of these BCA
Industry members on the http://www.bca-pool.com website.

The BCA did ask for public input before December of 2003, and a lot of folks
e-mailed their votes. The players who received the most votes on the Internet
forum sites were Ronnie Allen, Bugs, Jose Parica, and DEFINITELY Allen Hopkins.

It is interesting to note that Ronnie Allen is not even listed on the BCA
website under the Men's Professionals or Men's Masters lists. It may explain
why the BCA does not consider him worthy of Hall of Fame induction if they
don't even recognize him as a pool player. There are some names on those lists
that Ronnie Allen could give the 7 to today.

It is curious how the candidate names were selected by the BCA. What names
were considered by the BCA Industry members after receiving the pool public
input?

Since the voting for BCA Hall of Fame induction is behind closed doors, we will
never know. Whether this is intentional or not is puzzling and -- [just for
you, Patrick] -- baffling.

JAM
lfigueroa
2004-02-24 22:23:30 UTC
Permalink
I guess I would ask: what did they do for the sport? Or are you arguing
that just being a great player is strong enough justification for being
inducted into the HOF? I know they were/are fabulously creative players,
but on the other hand, there are reasons -- unrelated to the strength of
their play -- why Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe aren't in the HOF...

Lou Figueroa
Post by Grady
I'd like to see the results of all the voting for this year's and any
other year's HOF procedures.Billiards Digest and the BCA do things in
far too secretive a manner for my tastes.
It's about time that a really qualified panel of dignified experts,
100 per cent excluding industry magazine editors, was formed, for the
purpose of selecting HOF inductees.
This post isn't about me. I've come to the point where I could care
less about the machinations and deceit of the BCA and BD too, for that
matter.No, friends and pool lovers, this post is about "Bugs", Ronnie
Allen and Jersey Red not being in the HOF.
There exists no rationalization or sound basis for this. In fact, it's
insulting to have the BCA and BD love how Johnston City, gambling and
guys like "Bugs", Red and Ronnie played and excited thousands of fans
and then exclude them and their ilk from the HOF.
It's a disgrace, ladies and gentlemen and I'd like to begin a
groundswell movement to: a. Get these guys and some others inducted,
as they so richly deserve and b.Get rid of the 6 to 8 man comittee
that currently, in total secrecy as far as I know,conducts highly
suspicious voting for the HOF.
Thanks for your kind attention, Grady
Jim
2004-02-24 22:37:25 UTC
Permalink
So are you saying that if a great pool player gambles he shouldn't be in the
hall of fame????
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHA

Jim
Post by lfigueroa
I guess I would ask: what did they do for the sport? Or are you arguing
that just being a great player is strong enough justification for being
inducted into the HOF? I know they were/are fabulously creative players,
but on the other hand, there are reasons -- unrelated to the strength of
their play -- why Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe aren't in the HOF...
Lou Figueroa
Post by Grady
I'd like to see the results of all the voting for this year's and any
other year's HOF procedures.Billiards Digest and the BCA do things in
far too secretive a manner for my tastes.
It's about time that a really qualified panel of dignified experts,
100 per cent excluding industry magazine editors, was formed, for the
purpose of selecting HOF inductees.
This post isn't about me. I've come to the point where I could care
less about the machinations and deceit of the BCA and BD too, for that
matter.No, friends and pool lovers, this post is about "Bugs", Ronnie
Allen and Jersey Red not being in the HOF.
There exists no rationalization or sound basis for this. In fact, it's
insulting to have the BCA and BD love how Johnston City, gambling and
guys like "Bugs", Red and Ronnie played and excited thousands of fans
and then exclude them and their ilk from the HOF.
It's a disgrace, ladies and gentlemen and I'd like to begin a
groundswell movement to: a. Get these guys and some others inducted,
as they so richly deserve and b.Get rid of the 6 to 8 man comittee
that currently, in total secrecy as far as I know,conducts highly
suspicious voting for the HOF.
Thanks for your kind attention, Grady
lfigueroa
2004-02-24 23:32:47 UTC
Permalink
no. That is not what I was saying.

Lou Figueroa
talk about easily amused

where
Post by Jim
So are you saying that if a great pool player gambles he shouldn't be in the
hall of fame????
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Post by Jim
HAHAHAHAHA
Jim
Post by lfigueroa
I guess I would ask: what did they do for the sport? Or are you arguing
that just being a great player is strong enough justification for being
inducted into the HOF? I know they were/are fabulously creative players,
but on the other hand, there are reasons -- unrelated to the strength of
their play -- why Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe aren't in the HOF...
Lou Figueroa
Post by Grady
I'd like to see the results of all the voting for this year's and any
other year's HOF procedures.Billiards Digest and the BCA do things in
far too secretive a manner for my tastes.
It's about time that a really qualified panel of dignified experts,
100 per cent excluding industry magazine editors, was formed, for the
purpose of selecting HOF inductees.
This post isn't about me. I've come to the point where I could care
less about the machinations and deceit of the BCA and BD too, for that
matter.No, friends and pool lovers, this post is about "Bugs", Ronnie
Allen and Jersey Red not being in the HOF.
There exists no rationalization or sound basis for this. In fact, it's
insulting to have the BCA and BD love how Johnston City, gambling and
guys like "Bugs", Red and Ronnie played and excited thousands of fans
and then exclude them and their ilk from the HOF.
It's a disgrace, ladies and gentlemen and I'd like to begin a
groundswell movement to: a. Get these guys and some others inducted,
as they so richly deserve and b.Get rid of the 6 to 8 man comittee
that currently, in total secrecy as far as I know,conducts highly
suspicious voting for the HOF.
Thanks for your kind attention, Grady
Eddie
2004-02-25 01:04:04 UTC
Permalink
The biggest reason for having a Hall of Fame is so people I don't care about
at all anyway can enjoy arguing about who gets in, who doesn't get in bla,
bla, bla.

No one is ever going to take those 4000 hits away from him.
Post by lfigueroa
I guess I would ask: what did they do for the sport? Or are you arguing
that just being a great player is strong enough justification for being
inducted into the HOF? I know they were/are fabulously creative players,
but on the other hand, there are reasons -- unrelated to the strength of
their play -- why Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe aren't in the HOF...
Lou Figueroa
JAM
2004-02-25 11:07:22 UTC
Permalink
Lou posts: "I guess I would ask: what did they do for the sport? Or are you
arguing
that just being a great player is strong enough justification for being
inducted into the HOF? I know they were/are fabulously creative players, but
on the other hand, there are reasons -- unrelated to the strength of their
play -- why Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe aren't in the HOF..."

Let's take Jose Parica. It is a fact that Efren has stated Jose Parica was a
guy he used to look up to when he was younger, a mentor, so to speak.

Jose was the first World Pool champion, long before Efren was the topnotch
player that he is today.

Jose is the number-two ranked UPA touring pro. Look at Jose's recent track
record of tournament wins for 2003.

KM says Jose was the first Phillipino champion to hit the U.S. and shocked
everybody with his level of play. He led the so-called "Phillipino Invasion."

Now let's take Ronnie Allen. I can remember back in the late '70s and early
'80s the name "Ronnie Allen." He was probably shooting at his peak during this
time period. The BCA does not even have Ronnie Allen listed on their website
as a pool player on the men's professional or men's master lists, like he can't
play a lick. What a joke!

If your point, Lou, is that Ronnie Allen was one of those "road agents" and
gambled his way around the country, so did a lot of other pool phenoms,
including Hall of Famer Efren Reyes.

Recently, there was a "stink" about Louie Roberts' memory being tarnished. I'm
sure you will remember the thread. He is one of pool's favorite characters,
and folks to this day still enjoy talking about Louie Roberts and his
adventures. Look at the DCC Louie Roberts Award. Louie Roberts lived in the
same era as Ronnie Allen, Cornbread, and many other pool legends. He was
recognized not only for his level of play, but he was a colorful character. He
is definitely a part of pool's history, as is Ronnie Allen.

Allen Hopkins is another story. For the life of me, I just can't imagine WHY
he is not in the HOF already. He is a pool champion, probably THE most
successful pool promoter in the States, and is still contributing to our pool
world. Anybody who saw him compete at Glass City Open can vouch for the fact
that he's still got game and plenty of it.

I hate to think it, but I am forming the belief that the BCA HOF is just a
political machine that only exists to benefit the BCA voting members.

Having said that, though, I do believe Ewa is worthy of HOF induction. There
can only be one winner. I am sure her sponsors, industry voting members, are
happy that she's in.

JAM
lfigueroa
2004-02-25 14:02:34 UTC
Permalink
IMO, Jose will be in the HOF, sooner or later. Same for Allen Hopkins.

But there are some players, of incredible talent, that did far more than
gamble their way across the country. Guys who would dump their mothers and
double-dump their grandmothers. Guys who have standard cons to use when
they're stuck (I especially like the "what is your ball doing in my pocket?"
move). Guys who have left a fat wide trail of markers across the country.
Guys whose reputation for drug abuse and/or alcohol abuse competes with any
achievement of theirs on the table.

People don't forget being dumped, conned, duped, double-crossed, and ripped
off. People don't forget seeing a great player passed out in the pool hall
bathroom because he's on the very verge of ODing. They don't forget a great
player acting like a common drunk. That's why certain players, who have a
well-earned reputation for that kind of baloney, will never get into the
HOF.

Induction to the HOF is based on a player's accomplishments and reputation.
If your reputation is "great player, but the most unscrupulous person to
ever to walk into a pool room" or "great player, when his mixture is right"
why should you be in the HOF?

Lou Figueroa
Post by JAM
Lou posts: "I guess I would ask: what did they do for the sport? Or are you
arguing
that just being a great player is strong enough justification for being
inducted into the HOF? I know they were/are fabulously creative players, but
on the other hand, there are reasons -- unrelated to the strength of their
play -- why Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe aren't in the HOF..."
Let's take Jose Parica. It is a fact that Efren has stated Jose Parica was a
guy he used to look up to when he was younger, a mentor, so to speak.
Jose was the first World Pool champion, long before Efren was the topnotch
player that he is today.
Jose is the number-two ranked UPA touring pro. Look at Jose's recent track
record of tournament wins for 2003.
KM says Jose was the first Phillipino champion to hit the U.S. and shocked
everybody with his level of play. He led the so-called "Phillipino Invasion."
Now let's take Ronnie Allen. I can remember back in the late '70s and early
'80s the name "Ronnie Allen." He was probably shooting at his peak during this
time period. The BCA does not even have Ronnie Allen listed on their website
as a pool player on the men's professional or men's master lists, like he can't
play a lick. What a joke!
If your point, Lou, is that Ronnie Allen was one of those "road agents" and
gambled his way around the country, so did a lot of other pool phenoms,
including Hall of Famer Efren Reyes.
Recently, there was a "stink" about Louie Roberts' memory being tarnished.
I'm
Post by JAM
sure you will remember the thread. He is one of pool's favorite characters,
and folks to this day still enjoy talking about Louie Roberts and his
adventures. Look at the DCC Louie Roberts Award. Louie Roberts lived in the
same era as Ronnie Allen, Cornbread, and many other pool legends. He was
recognized not only for his level of play, but he was a colorful character. He
is definitely a part of pool's history, as is Ronnie Allen.
Allen Hopkins is another story. For the life of me, I just can't imagine WHY
he is not in the HOF already. He is a pool champion, probably THE most
successful pool promoter in the States, and is still contributing to our pool
world. Anybody who saw him compete at Glass City Open can vouch for the fact
that he's still got game and plenty of it.
I hate to think it, but I am forming the belief that the BCA HOF is just a
political machine that only exists to benefit the BCA voting members.
Having said that, though, I do believe Ewa is worthy of HOF induction.
There
Post by JAM
can only be one winner. I am sure her sponsors, industry voting members, are
happy that she's in.
JAM
JAM
2004-02-25 14:34:04 UTC
Permalink
Lou posts: "But there are some players ... that did far more than gamble their
way across the country, guys who would dump their mothers and double-dump their
grandmothers, guys who have standard cons to use when they're stuck ... guys
who have left a fat wide trail of markers across the country, guys whose
reputation for drug abuse and/or alcohol abuse competes with any achievement of
theirs on the table."

The legend of Hank Williams quickly overtook the man. Odder yet, the legend
changed radically over the years. The sainted Hank Williams who presided
beatifically over country music in the years immediately after his death barely
let alcohol or a cussword pass his lips. Yet, by the '70s and '80s, he was
drinking enough to kill 50 men, let alone one rather frail one.

There is no shortage of Hank Williams stories, many of them "Hank Williams
falling-over-drunk" stories.

The myths and the tales have all been good for the legend, though the problem
is that they would have eventually passed for history unless someone had tried
to set the story straight. The number of those who knew Hank Williams
diminishes every year. He is the King of Country Music, and many have tried to
place him in the context of the music industry of his day, not ours, and to
show how the industry grew around him during the years that he lived.

Lou continues: Induction to the HOF is based on a player's accomplishments and
reputation. If your reputation is 'great player, but the most unscrupulous
person to ever to walk into a pool room' or 'great player, when his mixture is
right,' why should you be in the HOF?"

Ronnie Allen is one of -- if not -- THE best one-pocket player on the face of
the earth, and any time he plays, you can be sure there is a crowd around his
table.

The image you portray of a pool player acting like a common drunk is repulsive
to you. Like Hank Williams, Sr., they still have contributed immeasurably to
this pool world, like it or not, Lou.

As far as "gambling their way across the country," that is part of the fabric
of pool's history in these United States, like it or not, Lou. That is why
"The Hustler" was popular. It is what legends are made of.

Lou continues: "People don't forget seeing a great player passed out in the
pool hall barthroom because he is on the very verge of OD-ing."

Hank Williams had the very same reputation, but he is still a legend and
deservedly so, despite his antics, Lou.

JAM
ratchet
2004-02-25 15:27:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by JAM
Hank Williams had the very same reputation, but he is still a legend and
deservedly so, despite his antics, Lou.
JAM
I would rather have a colorful character to build an icon out of to promote an
industry than another "got milk " campaign !!
JAM
2004-02-25 15:52:57 UTC
Permalink
Ratchet posts: "I would rather have a colorful character to build an icon out
of to promote an industry than another 'Got Milk' campaign!"

These colorful characters have made invaluable contributions to American pool,
and whether they are recognized or not by industry, the BCA, and media, those
who are still alive today and remember these legends will continue to debate
their importance as it relates to the history of pool.

JAM
Frank Glenn
2004-02-25 16:45:06 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@mb-m05.aol.com>,
***@aol.comnojunk says...
:|:These colorful characters have made invaluable contributions to American pool,
:|:and whether they are recognized or not by industry, the BCA, and media, those
:|:who are still alive today and remember these legends will continue to debate
:|:their importance as it relates to the history of pool.
:|:
:|:

With no disrespect to any of these great players, I think part of the
problem is not winning major tournaments. By major I mean BCA events.
I do think the BCA is a little self serving, and as someone posted
earlier, they should have started with some people in from the
beginning, so that over time, it would be newer players inducted, but
the fact is they did not do this. When you own the ball field, and
the balls, bats and gloves, you get to charge what you want for
admission. The acid test is whether anyone will pay the price to get
in. Some one else posted that the BCA is the "self proclaimed" voice
or official organization for pool. Until someone else steps up, this
is all we got. I keep buying tickets for the mega lottery, but so far
haven't won the 200 million dollar prize. As soon as I do, I will go
about changing some of this (or at least trying). Until then we will
have to wait for someone else to step up.
Frank <- really wants to win and step up
Tom Bellhouse
2004-02-25 23:52:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by JAM
Ratchet posts: "I would rather have a colorful
character to build an icon out
Post by JAM
of to promote an industry than another 'Got
Milk' campaign!"
Post by JAM
These colorful characters have made invaluable
contributions to American pool,
Post by JAM
and whether they are recognized or not by
industry, the BCA, and media, those
Post by JAM
who are still alive today and remember these
legends will continue to debate
Post by JAM
their importance as it relates to the history of
pool.
Post by JAM
JAM
Red should be in the Hall of Fame. Period.

Tom
lfigueroa
2004-02-26 01:32:53 UTC
Permalink
Why?

Why not make your best case -- IOW, how would your nomination to the HOF
committee read?

Lou Figueroa
Post by ratchet
Post by JAM
Ratchet posts: "I would rather have a colorful
character to build an icon out
Post by JAM
of to promote an industry than another 'Got
Milk' campaign!"
Post by JAM
These colorful characters have made invaluable
contributions to American pool,
Post by JAM
and whether they are recognized or not by
industry, the BCA, and media, those
Post by JAM
who are still alive today and remember these
legends will continue to debate
Post by JAM
their importance as it relates to the history of
pool.
Post by JAM
JAM
Red should be in the Hall of Fame. Period.
Tom
Tom Bellhouse
2004-02-26 02:03:37 UTC
Permalink
Lou, I grew up watching him play in Houston.
Let's just say he is in MY hall of fame. And he
played a lot better than Fats, who got in the Hall
through personality and showmanship. Maybe Fats
was better earlier on, I don't know. But the pool
skill I saw didn't get him into the Hall, that's
for sure.

This is not to knock Fats, just to point out that
number of years #1, or titles earned, hasn't been
a consistent criterion. I just happened to like
Red, and his game, more than any others I saw at
the time.

What would your criteria be?

Tom
Post by lfigueroa
Why?
Why not make your best case -- IOW, how would
your nomination to the HOF
Post by lfigueroa
committee read?
Lou Figueroa
Post by ratchet
Post by JAM
Ratchet posts: "I would rather have a
colorful
Post by lfigueroa
Post by ratchet
character to build an icon out
Post by JAM
of to promote an industry than another 'Got
Milk' campaign!"
Post by JAM
These colorful characters have made
invaluable
Post by lfigueroa
Post by ratchet
contributions to American pool,
Post by JAM
and whether they are recognized or not by
industry, the BCA, and media, those
Post by JAM
who are still alive today and remember these
legends will continue to debate
Post by JAM
their importance as it relates to the
history of
Post by lfigueroa
Post by ratchet
pool.
Post by JAM
JAM
Red should be in the Hall of Fame. Period.
Tom
lfigueroa
2004-02-26 02:17:02 UTC
Permalink
Tom, I understand perfectly about Red.

At one time, I held Ronnie Allen in the same esteem. I mean, if you're a
1pocket player, how could you not? His name is legendary as a very creative
player. BUT that doesn't mean I think he could (or should) ever make it
into the HOF. The more I learned about Ronnie and 1pocket; the more I
talked to players who had gambled with him; the more accounts I heard of
some of his "business" transactions, from very knowledgeable people; the
more my opinion about him evolved. He's still fun to watch :-)

Lou Figueroa
Post by Tom Bellhouse
Lou, I grew up watching him play in Houston.
Let's just say he is in MY hall of fame. And he
played a lot better than Fats, who got in the Hall
through personality and showmanship. Maybe Fats
was better earlier on, I don't know. But the pool
skill I saw didn't get him into the Hall, that's
for sure.
This is not to knock Fats, just to point out that
number of years #1, or titles earned, hasn't been
a consistent criterion. I just happened to like
Red, and his game, more than any others I saw at
the time.
What would your criteria be?
Tom
Post by lfigueroa
Why?
Why not make your best case -- IOW, how would
your nomination to the HOF
Post by lfigueroa
committee read?
Lou Figueroa
Post by ratchet
Post by JAM
Ratchet posts: "I would rather have a
colorful
Post by lfigueroa
Post by ratchet
character to build an icon out
Post by JAM
of to promote an industry than another 'Got
Milk' campaign!"
Post by JAM
These colorful characters have made
invaluable
Post by lfigueroa
Post by ratchet
contributions to American pool,
Post by JAM
and whether they are recognized or not by
industry, the BCA, and media, those
Post by JAM
who are still alive today and remember these
legends will continue to debate
Post by JAM
their importance as it relates to the
history of
Post by lfigueroa
Post by ratchet
pool.
Post by JAM
JAM
Red should be in the Hall of Fame. Period.
Tom
JAM
2004-03-02 10:05:51 UTC
Permalink
Tom posts: "Red should be in the Hall of Fame. Period."

I am going to attempt to get this thread back on track.

Tom, please post more about Red. I am not as familiar with his accomplishments
as I am others and would like to know more about him.

JAM
Tom Bellhouse
2004-03-02 20:11:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by JAM
Tom posts: "Red should be in the Hall of Fame.
Period."
Post by JAM
I am going to attempt to get this thread back on
track.
Post by JAM
Tom, please post more about Red. I am not as
familiar with his accomplishments
Post by JAM
as I am others and would like to know more about
him.
Post by JAM
JAM
Red played Ronnie Allen a lot in Houston, and if I
was betting, I'd take Red.

When some players came into Le Cue they weren't
even noticed by most people, which is the effect
they wanted, I'm sure. When Red came in the room
the atmosphere changed. He was at top speed then,
and a hush would fall when he came in. He usually
had a match lined up and went to work without a
lot of BS, unless it was good-natured banter. At
the table, he was the most intimidating player I
have ever seen. Not the straightest shooter,
though. That was Greg Stevens, one of Red's
sources of income. Greg would play for a couple
of days straight, disappear into the
air-conditioning equipment room at Le Cue for a
while to "rest his eyes" and re-emerge for another
couple of days of action. Couldn't shoot a lick
until he got his "mixture" right. Mosconi said
that Greg was the straightest shooter he had ever
seen, and I agree. His best hustle: He'd play
anybody 9-ball on a bar table if you gave him the
breaks. In exchange, he'd give you all the balls,
all the pockets and all the rails. If you could
legally drive the object ball to any rail at any
time in the game, you won. I never saw him lose
that setup. Hall Of Fame material, no. Fantastic
shooter, yes.

Red didn't win major tournaments, but to my young
eyes, he was 10 feet tall. Most important to me
(but not the BCA, of course) was that he was a
good guy, kept his word, remembered who I was, and
doted over his wife and manager Dottie. She was
the banker and advisor, and another fine person.
As I wrote here recently, Red is in MY hall of
fame. He showed how to take over a table, and a
game, and a match, by skill, force of will and
"presence." The "Hustler Days" book does a good
job of paying tribute to him, IMHO.

Fats was different. When Fats came in, he'd let
people know he was there with his big mouth,
talking up his game and talking down others'
skills, with the intention of pissing them off so
that they would give up too much weight. And it
worked. He also knew how to pace the game. I
remember one Friday when some player and his
backers came down to Houston to "get" Fats. They
matched up, and Fats managed to lose a grand. So,
they came back to the trough to feed the next
night, and Fats took them for about 25K at the
same game. He knew what he was doing the whole
time.

And then there was U. J. Puckett! That's a whole
'nother book! Best nine-ball break I ever saw,
and he wasn't really a nine-ball player.

Damn, those were the days.

Tom <-- (just turned 60 and can't shoot a lick)
JAM
2004-03-02 20:32:55 UTC
Permalink
Tom posts: "At the table, he was the most intimidating player I have ever
seen."

I never got the opportunity to see Red in action. I remember running into him
on the road back in the '80s, but he wasn't playing at that time. Thanks for
the wonderful stories.

Greg Stevens is somebody I am going to ask KM about. He sounds like quite a
character!

Texas sure does have its share of good pool stories.

The last time Fats gambled in open view was with KM -- or maybe I should say
ONE OF THE LAST TIMES he gambled and subject to check. I keep hearing a lot of
stories about Fats and his Deusenberg. Funny stuff!

JAM
lfigueroa
2004-02-25 21:10:03 UTC
Permalink
Well, I admit to not knowing much about country music, but I do know that HW
had several number one hits and wrote a whole slew of country classics.
IOW, he sold a lot of records. It's much like the case of Ralph Greenleaf,
who, by all accounts, was quite the lush. But he won world titles. IOW, he
wasn't just good. He wasn't just a creative player. And he wasn't just a
legendary road agent. He was "the world champ" for over a dozen years --
and that level of accomplishment forgives a world of sins.

And I'm sorry, but Ronnie Allen is not one of the best 1pocket players.
Last I heard he was gettin' 11-6/10-6 from Scotty Frost at the DCC. Even in
his prime, I doubt he could have beaten any of the top 1pocket specialists
of today. Back when he was one of the top 1pocket players, the shots and
moves were not anywhere near as well known, practiced and executed as they
are today. I talked to him a few years back and he was complaining that
shots it had taken him years to learn were now being shot with aplomb by 17
year old kids. Yes, there's always a crowd around his table, but that's
because he is liable to shoot a brilliant shot here and there and he always
talks an entertaining game.

I would argue that most road agents have contributed very little to the
sport and there are a whole bunch of folks, from coast-to-coast, who were
dumped, conned, or just flat out ripped off by some of these guys that
agree. They may be legends... but for good reason, they ain't never gettin'
in the HOF.

Lou Figueroa
Post by JAM
Lou posts: "But there are some players ... that did far more than gamble their
way across the country, guys who would dump their mothers and double-dump their
grandmothers, guys who have standard cons to use when they're stuck ... guys
who have left a fat wide trail of markers across the country, guys whose
reputation for drug abuse and/or alcohol abuse competes with any achievement of
theirs on the table."
The legend of Hank Williams quickly overtook the man. Odder yet, the legend
changed radically over the years. The sainted Hank Williams who presided
beatifically over country music in the years immediately after his death barely
let alcohol or a cussword pass his lips. Yet, by the '70s and '80s, he was
drinking enough to kill 50 men, let alone one rather frail one.
There is no shortage of Hank Williams stories, many of them "Hank Williams
falling-over-drunk" stories.
The myths and the tales have all been good for the legend, though the problem
is that they would have eventually passed for history unless someone had tried
to set the story straight. The number of those who knew Hank Williams
diminishes every year. He is the King of Country Music, and many have tried to
place him in the context of the music industry of his day, not ours, and to
show how the industry grew around him during the years that he lived.
Lou continues: Induction to the HOF is based on a player's
accomplishments and
Post by JAM
reputation. If your reputation is 'great player, but the most
unscrupulous
Post by JAM
person to ever to walk into a pool room' or 'great player, when his mixture is
right,' why should you be in the HOF?"
Ronnie Allen is one of -- if not -- THE best one-pocket player on the face of
the earth, and any time he plays, you can be sure there is a crowd around his
table.
The image you portray of a pool player acting like a common drunk is repulsive
to you. Like Hank Williams, Sr., they still have contributed immeasurably to
this pool world, like it or not, Lou.
As far as "gambling their way across the country," that is part of the fabric
of pool's history in these United States, like it or not, Lou. That is why
"The Hustler" was popular. It is what legends are made of.
Lou continues: "People don't forget seeing a great player passed out in the
pool hall barthroom because he is on the very verge of OD-ing."
Hank Williams had the very same reputation, but he is still a legend and
deservedly so, despite his antics, Lou.
JAM
JAM
2004-02-25 22:34:25 UTC
Permalink
Lou F. posts: "And I'm sorry, but Ronnie Allen is not one of the best 1pocket
players. Last I heard he was gettin' 11-6/10-6 from Scotty Frost at the DCC.
Even in his prime, I doubt he could have beaten any of the top 1pocket
specialists
of today."

Ronnie Allen is one of THE best one-pocket players of all time. To not
recognize this fact, you are either ignorant or just plain stubborn.

"Ronnie 'Fast Eddie' Allen has long been acknowledged to be one of the best
one-pocket players in the world. Even Efren Reyes, the number-one-ranked
player in the world required a spot to match up in one-pocket with Ronnie...."

There's a quote from the November 1986 P&B magazine, Lou. How do you like it?

Here's another little tidbit, Lou

A quote by Ronnie Allen: "I remember when the game of one-pocket was first
created. It was in Oklahoma City in the late '40s or early '50s. Back then,
the hustlers" --

Notice the word he uses, Lou, "hustlers"

-- "like Rudy 'New York Fats' Wanderone" --

Hmm, BCA Hall of Famer, Lou?

-- "Hubert 'Daddy Warbucks' Cokes, and Johnny 'White Rags' Fitzgerald (all
credited to be founders of the game) would get together and play 'one and
stop.' That is how one-pocket originated. In 'one and stop,' they would make
a ball and play safe. They wouldn't dream of trying to run eight balls out of
the rack into one pocket. Maybe that is why I got to be known as 'Fast Eddie.'
I could finish a game of one-pocket in record time. I was the one that
brought offense to the game."

Give the man his propers, Lou, and get off your high horse.

So what if Scott Frost spots Ronnie Allen today. I'd like to see your game
when you are Ronnie Allen's age. You may just be a jibbering idiot with no
talent, kind of like...oh, you fill in the blank, Lou. You're pretty good at
hurling insults to those whose talent exceed yours.

JAM
lfigueroa
2004-02-25 23:08:26 UTC
Permalink
I don't understand why, when someone has an opinion that differs from yours,
you sink to insults and name calling.

If you want to think Ronnie Allen is the best 1pocket player ever, fine.
That doesn't make you "ignorant or just plain stubborn", it doesn't put you
on a "high horse," and it doesn't mean you're "hurling insults" at other
players. And what does my opinion about where Ronnie Allen sits in the
universe of 1pocket players have to do with my game, or yours, for that
matter?!

IMO, Ronnie Allen was good when only a handful of player seriously played
the game. Nowadays, when the game is more widely played and people have
read books on it, watched and studied Accu-Stats matches, and seem a wide
variety of players interpret it, it's a completely different story. All you
have to do is take one look at his pokey, sideswiping stroke to know he'd
never have a chance against the level of play of today's professionals. If
you watch his match against Danny Diliberto from 1988 you can see he's a
creative player, no doubt, but his game is not up to current professional
standards. A couple of years ago at the DCC, no one would buy him in
calcutta for the last 20 players or so of the 1pocket. I think Scott Smith
took him for $50

I don't have to give him what you or anyone else considers "his propers." I
have played, watched, and studied the game long enough to be entitled to my
opinion without someone like you calling me ignorant or stubborn.

Lou Figueroa
Post by JAM
Lou F. posts: "And I'm sorry, but Ronnie Allen is not one of the best 1pocket
players. Last I heard he was gettin' 11-6/10-6 from Scotty Frost at the DCC.
Even in his prime, I doubt he could have beaten any of the top 1pocket
specialists
of today."
Ronnie Allen is one of THE best one-pocket players of all time. To not
recognize this fact, you are either ignorant or just plain stubborn.
"Ronnie 'Fast Eddie' Allen has long been acknowledged to be one of the best
one-pocket players in the world. Even Efren Reyes, the number-one-ranked
player in the world required a spot to match up in one-pocket with Ronnie...."
There's a quote from the November 1986 P&B magazine, Lou. How do you like it?
Here's another little tidbit, Lou
A quote by Ronnie Allen: "I remember when the game of one-pocket was first
created. It was in Oklahoma City in the late '40s or early '50s. Back then,
the hustlers" --
Notice the word he uses, Lou, "hustlers"
-- "like Rudy 'New York Fats' Wanderone" --
Hmm, BCA Hall of Famer, Lou?
-- "Hubert 'Daddy Warbucks' Cokes, and Johnny 'White Rags' Fitzgerald (all
credited to be founders of the game) would get together and play 'one and
stop.' That is how one-pocket originated. In 'one and stop,' they would make
a ball and play safe. They wouldn't dream of trying to run eight balls out of
the rack into one pocket. Maybe that is why I got to be known as 'Fast Eddie.'
I could finish a game of one-pocket in record time. I was the one that
brought offense to the game."
Give the man his propers, Lou, and get off your high horse.
So what if Scott Frost spots Ronnie Allen today. I'd like to see your game
when you are Ronnie Allen's age. You may just be a jibbering idiot with no
talent, kind of like...oh, you fill in the blank, Lou. You're pretty good at
hurling insults to those whose talent exceed yours.
JAM
JAM
2004-02-26 00:14:18 UTC
Permalink
Lou posts: "A couple of years ago at the DCC, no one would buy him in calcutta
for the last 20 players or so of the 1pocket. I think Scott Smith took him for
$50..."

And what the hell does that prove, Lou? That man is up in years. You can only
hope that you are lucky enough to be walking when you reach his age. And you'd
probably have to buy yourself in any Calcutta because no one would want you, or
even know who you are, for that matter.

Lou F. continues ranting: "I don't have to give him what you or anyone else
considers 'his propers.' I have played, watched, and studied the game long
enough to be entitled to my opinion without someone like you calling me
ignorant or stubborn."

Well, you just better keep playing, watching, and studying the game, Lou,
because you are ignorant and stubborn if you cannot recognize Ronnie Allen as
one of the best one-pocket players in the world, bar none.

And as far as me name-calling, I haven't started. I am only using descriptive
adjectives to capture the essence of your opinion that differs from mine.

JAM
lfigueroa
2004-02-26 01:37:18 UTC
Permalink
"What the hell does that prove?"

Well, you said:

"Ronnie Allen is one of -- if not -- THE best one-pocket player on the face
of the earth..."

and

"Ronnie Allen... one of the best one-pocket players in the world, bar none."

Money talks and all that. In the hard market place of opinions -- where
knowledgeable people have to back up their opinions with cash --- no one
wanted to buy him. That's what proves.

And, as I've already asked: what does my game (or health 10 years from
now?!) have to do with having a legitimate opinion on where Ronnie Allen
sits in the universe of 1pocket players?

Lou Figueroa
Post by JAM
Lou posts: "A couple of years ago at the DCC, no one would buy him in calcutta
for the last 20 players or so of the 1pocket. I think Scott Smith took him for
$50..."
And what the hell does that prove, Lou? That man is up in years. You can only
hope that you are lucky enough to be walking when you reach his age. And you'd
probably have to buy yourself in any Calcutta because no one would want you, or
even know who you are, for that matter.
Lou F. continues ranting: "I don't have to give him what you or anyone else
considers 'his propers.' I have played, watched, and studied the game long
enough to be entitled to my opinion without someone like you calling me
ignorant or stubborn."
Well, you just better keep playing, watching, and studying the game, Lou,
because you are ignorant and stubborn if you cannot recognize Ronnie Allen as
one of the best one-pocket players in the world, bar none.
And as far as me name-calling, I haven't started. I am only using descriptive
adjectives to capture the essence of your opinion that differs from mine.
JAM
Ron Shepard
2004-02-26 16:34:52 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@mb-m05.aol.com>,
***@aol.comnojunk (JAM) wrote:

[JAM responds to Lou...]
Post by JAM
You're pretty good at
hurling insults to those whose talent exceed yours.
I'd say that reply rates a 10 on the irony scale.

$.02 -Ron Shepard <--what a group we have here :-)
lfigueroa
2004-02-26 21:37:18 UTC
Permalink
I thought she maxed out the old RSB Irono-meter on that one.

Well, you know what they say: wisdom comes with age. But sometimes, wisdom
comes alone :-)

Lou Figueroa
Post by Ron Shepard
[JAM responds to Lou...]
Post by JAM
You're pretty good at
hurling insults to those whose talent exceed yours.
I'd say that reply rates a 10 on the irony scale.
$.02 -Ron Shepard <--what a group we have here :-)
Gideon Forrest
2004-02-27 14:11:05 UTC
Permalink
Shouldn't that be "age comes alone"?

Gideon
Post by lfigueroa
I thought she maxed out the old RSB Irono-meter on that one.
Well, you know what they say: wisdom comes with age. But sometimes, wisdom
comes alone :-)
Lou Figueroa
Post by Ron Shepard
[JAM responds to Lou...]
Post by JAM
You're pretty good at
hurling insults to those whose talent exceed yours.
I'd say that reply rates a 10 on the irony scale.
$.02 -Ron Shepard <--what a group we have here :-)
lfigueroa
2004-03-01 22:22:43 UTC
Permalink
of course -- but if one is true, so might the other, particularly in the
case in question :-)

Lou Figueroa
Post by Gideon Forrest
Shouldn't that be "age comes alone"?
Gideon
Post by lfigueroa
I thought she maxed out the old RSB Irono-meter on that one.
Well, you know what they say: wisdom comes with age. But sometimes,
wisdom
Post by lfigueroa
comes alone :-)
Lou Figueroa
Post by Ron Shepard
[JAM responds to Lou...]
Post by JAM
You're pretty good at
hurling insults to those whose talent exceed yours.
I'd say that reply rates a 10 on the irony scale.
$.02 -Ron Shepard <--what a group we have here :-)
JAM
2004-03-01 22:39:42 UTC
Permalink
Lou posts: "of course -- but if one is true, so might the other, particularly
in the
case in question :-)"

And what in the hell does that mean? Please explain.

JAM (Awaiting the incoming)
lfigueroa
2004-03-01 22:53:00 UTC
Permalink
Gideon, now you can see why I floated it in on a negative :-)

Lou Figueroa
Post by JAM
Lou posts: "of course -- but if one is true, so might the other, particularly
in the
case in question :-)"
And what in the hell does that mean? Please explain.
JAM (Awaiting the incoming)
JAM
2004-03-01 23:07:47 UTC
Permalink
Lou posts to Gideon: "Gideon, now you can see why I floated it in on a
negative :-)"

The only thing floating around here is your POS response to me.

JAM
lfigueroa
2004-03-02 02:04:34 UTC
Permalink
OK -- happy to play, Monkey Steno.

Let's go.

Lou Figueroa
tired of playing nice
Post by JAM
Lou posts to Gideon: "Gideon, now you can see why I floated it in on a
negative :-)"
The only thing floating around here is your POS response to me.
JAM
Donald Tees
2004-03-01 22:36:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by lfigueroa
of course -- but if one is true, so might the other, particularly in the
case in question :-)
Lou Figueroa
Doncha hate it when you have to explain 'em?

Donald
lfigueroa
2004-03-02 02:01:01 UTC
Permalink
I think we have inherited our own "Luuuucy!"

Lou Figueroa
Post by Donald Tees
Post by lfigueroa
of course -- but if one is true, so might the other, particularly in the
case in question :-)
Lou Figueroa
Doncha hate it when you have to explain 'em?
Donald
Smorgass Bored
2004-02-26 00:21:07 UTC
Permalink
Lou Fig opined:
Yes, there's always a crowd around his table, but that's because he is
liable to shoot a brilliant shot here and there and he always talks an
entertaining game.
Lou-Lou


(*<~ Stop talking about me.



I'm blushing.... imo
NEXT,

Doug
~>*(((>< Big fish eat Little fish ><)))*<~
Ron Shepard
2004-02-26 16:25:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by JAM
Lou posts: "But there are some players ... that did far more than gamble their
way across the country, guys who would dump their mothers and double-dump their
grandmothers, guys who have standard cons to use when they're stuck ... guys
who have left a fat wide trail of markers across the country, guys whose
reputation for drug abuse and/or alcohol abuse competes with any achievement of
theirs on the table."
[...]
Post by JAM
As far as "gambling their way across the country," that is part of the fabric
of pool's history in these United States, like it or not, Lou.
If you read Lou's sentence, he is not disagreeing with that. You
left out the "far more than" in your reply, which changes the
meaning of his sentence. Lou described exactly the kind of behavior
that he meant by "far more than". All in all, I agree with Lou's
point. When someone is sufficiently disgusting, even if they are a
good player, they deserve pity more than hall of fame recognition.

BTW, the current Billiards Digest editorial advocates having an open
ballot for the BCA Hall of Fame instead of the current secret
ballot. What do people here think of that? How would it change the
process? How would it have changed the recent results?

$.02 -Ron Shepard
Sorackem
2004-02-26 19:32:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ron Shepard
BTW, the current Billiards Digest editorial advocates having an open
ballot for the BCA Hall of Fame instead of the current secret
ballot. What do people here think of that? How would it change the
process? How would it have changed the recent results?
$.02 -Ron Shepard
The editorial also suggests having a voting core of more specifically in
touch people "journalists, hall of famers, historians etc". I think this
would go further to help the integrity of the BCA Hall of Fame than merely
an open ballot.
Ever notice how many people have opinions based on ignorance and
self-importance and they're happy to advertise such and defend them with
little in the way of sensical reasoning ?

I believe that Hopkins would have been in by now, and likely Strickland
(although I believe Earl should grow up before he's allowed in).

Brian
just another one of the ignorant masses.
Mark0
2004-02-27 01:06:40 UTC
Permalink
Methinks you are confusing Hank Sr and Hank Jr JAM....

Mark0 <--also thought Shoeless Joe made the HOF (so what do I know)
Post by JAM
Lou posts: "But there are some players ... that did far more than gamble their
way across the country, guys who would dump their mothers and double-dump their
grandmothers, guys who have standard cons to use when they're stuck ... guys
who have left a fat wide trail of markers across the country, guys whose
reputation for drug abuse and/or alcohol abuse competes with any achievement of
theirs on the table."
The legend of Hank Williams quickly overtook the man. Odder yet, the legend
changed radically over the years. The sainted Hank Williams who presided
beatifically over country music in the years immediately after his death barely
let alcohol or a cussword pass his lips. Yet, by the '70s and '80s, he was
drinking enough to kill 50 men, let alone one rather frail one.
There is no shortage of Hank Williams stories, many of them "Hank Williams
falling-over-drunk" stories.
The myths and the tales have all been good for the legend, though the problem
is that they would have eventually passed for history unless someone had tried
to set the story straight. The number of those who knew Hank Williams
diminishes every year. He is the King of Country Music, and many have tried to
place him in the context of the music industry of his day, not ours, and to
show how the industry grew around him during the years that he lived.
Lou continues: Induction to the HOF is based on a player's
accomplishments and
Post by JAM
reputation. If your reputation is 'great player, but the most
unscrupulous
Post by JAM
person to ever to walk into a pool room' or 'great player, when his mixture is
right,' why should you be in the HOF?"
Ronnie Allen is one of -- if not -- THE best one-pocket player on the face of
the earth, and any time he plays, you can be sure there is a crowd around his
table.
The image you portray of a pool player acting like a common drunk is repulsive
to you. Like Hank Williams, Sr., they still have contributed immeasurably to
this pool world, like it or not, Lou.
As far as "gambling their way across the country," that is part of the fabric
of pool's history in these United States, like it or not, Lou. That is why
"The Hustler" was popular. It is what legends are made of.
Lou continues: "People don't forget seeing a great player passed out in the
pool hall barthroom because he is on the very verge of OD-ing."
Hank Williams had the very same reputation, but he is still a legend and
deservedly so, despite his antics, Lou.
JAM
JAM
2004-02-27 10:09:58 UTC
Permalink
Mark posts: "Me thinks you are confusing Hank Sr. and Hank Jr., JAM...."

Nope. I was definitely writing about Hank Williams, Sr.. I could write a
thesis paper on his life. I know every single song he wrote and all the words.

Members of my family from Virginia have been playing country music since I was
born, and bluegrass, too. My brother knows the words to every single Hank
Williams, Sr., song.

At Christmastime, everybody would gather together and jam. Even the children.
If you did not know how to play an instrument, you were given a washboard to
stroke or two spoons to bang together. I loved those Christmases of long ago.

Uncle Eugene met Hank a few times. He had his own band. When he would play
"Your Cheating Heart," it would bring the house down.

My favorite Hank Williams, Sr., song? "Lovesick Blues."

Nobody in my family would EVER confuse Hank, Sr., with his son -- EVER!

JAM
Donald Tees
2004-02-27 12:37:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by JAM
Mark posts: "Me thinks you are confusing Hank Sr. and Hank Jr., JAM...."
Nope. I was definitely writing about Hank Williams, Sr.. I could write a
thesis paper on his life. I know every single song he wrote and all the words.
Members of my family from Virginia have been playing country music since I was
born, and bluegrass, too. My brother knows the words to every single Hank
Williams, Sr., song.
At Christmastime, everybody would gather together and jam. Even the children.
If you did not know how to play an instrument, you were given a washboard to
stroke or two spoons to bang together. I loved those Christmases of long ago.
Uncle Eugene met Hank a few times. He had his own band. When he would play
"Your Cheating Heart," it would bring the house down.
My favorite Hank Williams, Sr., song? "Lovesick Blues."
Nobody in my family would EVER confuse Hank, Sr., with his son -- EVER!
JAM
Happy birthday Jam.

Donald
RWMCT
2004-02-28 03:21:04 UTC
Permalink
Except that "Lovesick Blues" is not really a Hank Williams Song. Or at least,
he did not write it, although he covered it and had a hit with it. It was his
rearrangement of an old song that went back at least to the teens or twenties,
if not before. Emmett Miller, I think.

Rich (is partial to the George Thorogood covered "Move it on Over", which
Williams recorded in 1947 or 48.)

Also: I should know better than to get in a pissing contest over trollers
running down Szambotis. Im still a bit peeved over the bushka thread.
Frank Glenn
2004-02-28 04:17:07 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@mb-m28.aol.com>,
***@aol.com says...
:|:It was his
:|:rearrangement of an old song that went back at least to the teens or twenties,
:|:if not before. Emmett Miller, I think.
:|:
:|:

Cliff Friend / Irving Mills
Frank
RWMCT
2004-03-01 04:03:10 UTC
Permalink
Frank said: Cliff Friend / Irving Mills

I stand corrected!

Rich (I did say, "I think" . . . )
Watchez
2004-02-25 00:02:08 UTC
Permalink
The BCA is full of "gray matter" and the point that Grady makes that they
don't make the voting public doesn't surprise me a bit. I have had
discussions with John Lewis on the phone & in person in Vegas the last
couple of years and each time come away more confused than before.

By the way, where is the Hall of Fame located? Probably the only virtual
HOF in any sport.
Post by Grady
I'd like to see the results of all the voting for this year's and any
other year's HOF procedures.Billiards Digest and the BCA do things in
far too secretive a manner for my tastes.
It's about time that a really qualified panel of dignified experts,
100 per cent excluding industry magazine editors, was formed, for the
purpose of selecting HOF inductees.
This post isn't about me. I've come to the point where I could care
less about the machinations and deceit of the BCA and BD too, for that
matter.No, friends and pool lovers, this post is about "Bugs", Ronnie
Allen and Jersey Red not being in the HOF.
There exists no rationalization or sound basis for this. In fact, it's
insulting to have the BCA and BD love how Johnston City, gambling and
guys like "Bugs", Red and Ronnie played and excited thousands of fans
and then exclude them and their ilk from the HOF.
It's a disgrace, ladies and gentlemen and I'd like to begin a
groundswell movement to: a. Get these guys and some others inducted,
as they so richly deserve and b.Get rid of the 6 to 8 man comittee
that currently, in total secrecy as far as I know,conducts highly
suspicious voting for the HOF.
Thanks for your kind attention, Grady
JAM
2004-02-25 11:39:34 UTC
Permalink
The Mighty Watchez posts: "I have had
discussions with John Lewis on the phone & in person in Vegas the last couple
of years and each time come away more confused than before."

"John Lewis" is a name that came up recently in a conversation I had with a
pool industry representative about a controversial matter.

How is he associated with the BCA?

JAM
Ron Hudson
2004-02-25 14:12:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by JAM
The Mighty Watchez posts: "I have had
discussions with John Lewis on the phone & in person in Vegas the last couple
of years and each time come away more confused than before."
"John Lewis" is a name that came up recently in a conversation I had with a
pool industry representative about a controversial matter.
How is he associated with the BCA?
JAM
John is the BCA's Director of Leagues & Player Programs.

Ron
JAM
2004-02-25 14:45:27 UTC
Permalink
Ron posts: "John is the BCA's Director of Leagues & Player Programs."

Thanks for the info.

I have always wondered who granted a newly formed UPA the right to enforce
their UPA ranking points, ranking points that are used for seeds and byes at
tournaments, ranking points that exclude non-UPA members such as Earl
Strickland, ranking points that make the average pool player start from the
bottom of the chart while topnotch professional players get seeds and byes and
only need to play one round with a lobster to get in the money round.

JAM
RWMCT
2004-02-27 03:18:05 UTC
Permalink
Hank Williams Sr. is a bad comparison, although I agree with the poster who
said that Greenleaf was as close as you could get in pool. Except how old was
Williams when he died, 29? Not much older I think. And his tunes are still
covered today. No one in pool really compares. Bad metaphor.
Bob Jewett
2004-02-27 03:50:10 UTC
Permalink
... No one in pool really compares.
Frank Ives died young.
--
Bob Jewett
[future home of commercial propaganda]
JAM
2004-02-27 10:16:18 UTC
Permalink
RWMCT posts: "Hank Williams Sr. is a bad comparison, although I agree with the
poster who said that Greenleaf was as close as you could get in pool. Except
how old was Williams when he died, 29? Not much older I think. And his tunes
are still covered today. No one in pool really compares. Bad metaphor."

IMHO, the comparison was right on.

I was stating the fact that Hank, Sr., was a heavy drinker, like the pool
player(s) that were referenced, but he still was the best, the King of Country
Music and is fondly remembered to this day.

Because he stayed drunk, didn't show up for shows, passed out in bathrooms,
like was referenced, it did not stop him from being in the HOF for Country
Music.

It is imperative to read ALL posts before responding, RWMCT.

Just because a guy drinks, and drinks to excess, it does not mean that he
doesn't have talent.

Yes, he died at 29 years of age. He drank himself to death.

JAM
JAM
2004-02-27 12:44:50 UTC
Permalink
JAM posts: "Just because a guy drinks, and drinks to excess, it does not mean
that he doesn't have talent."

Another comparison for RWMCT would be Johnny Cash. He was banned from the
Grand Old Opry because, when he was performing in a stupor on stage, he busted
up the stage lights. He was asked to leave and never come back. For a country
singer to be banned from the Grand Old Opry was a bad thing for old Johnny
Cash.

People, whether they are country singers or pool players or RSB NG posters, are
capable of making bad choices in life. It does not mean that they cannot pick
themselves up and make themselves a better person, like Johnny Cash did.

Ronnie Allen has a checkered past, like a lot of pool players I know. When
Ronnie was in his prime -- key word here, PRIME -- nobody could beat him in
one-pocket.

It is assine to state that nobody wanted to buy Ronnie Allen in a Calcutta a
couple of years ago, especially coming from somebody whose only claim to fame
is they beat Efren one time. Hey, I beat Nick Varner in front of a crowd 20
years ago. So what!

Ronnie Allen is sick, very sick as a matter of fact. He not only has diabetes,
but there are some other health problems. To take away the fact that he is one
of, if not THE best one-pocket player of all times is shameful and disgusting.

If there was ever a perfect example of a sucker punch, it comes in the form of
Lou's post about Ronnie Allen. You may not think he is worthy of HOF, but you
must have been living in a cave your whole life if you are not aware that he is
a champion one-pocket player, maybe the best one-pocket player on the face of
the earth.

JAM
lfigueroa
2004-03-01 22:22:04 UTC
Permalink
IMO, when Ronnie Allen was in his prime, not many people played 1pocket. In
his prime, Ronnie Allen could not run with today's 1pocket players.

You keep asking why I brought up the Calcutta at the DCC a couple of years
ago. It's because (once again), you said:

"Ronnie Allen is one of -- if not -- THE best one-pocket player on the face
of the earth..."

and

"Ronnie Allen... one of the best one-pocket players in the world, bar none."

Money talks -- when knowledgeable people had to back up their opinions
with cash --- no one wanted to buy him.

Lastly, I can't take anything away from Ronnie Allen. He has earned his
reputation and will have to live with it. But I can state my opinion,
somewhat obviously, with more logic and reasoning than you seem capable
of -- so you'll have to do better than starting up with the "sucker
punching" routine again.

Lou Figueroa
Post by JAM
JAM posts: "Just because a guy drinks, and drinks to excess, it does not mean
that he doesn't have talent."
Another comparison for RWMCT would be Johnny Cash. He was banned from the
Grand Old Opry because, when he was performing in a stupor on stage, he busted
up the stage lights. He was asked to leave and never come back. For a country
singer to be banned from the Grand Old Opry was a bad thing for old Johnny
Cash.
People, whether they are country singers or pool players or RSB NG posters, are
capable of making bad choices in life. It does not mean that they cannot pick
themselves up and make themselves a better person, like Johnny Cash did.
Ronnie Allen has a checkered past, like a lot of pool players I know.
When
Post by JAM
Ronnie was in his prime -- key word here, PRIME -- nobody could beat him in
one-pocket.
It is assine to state that nobody wanted to buy Ronnie Allen in a Calcutta a
couple of years ago, especially coming from somebody whose only claim to fame
is they beat Efren one time. Hey, I beat Nick Varner in front of a crowd 20
years ago. So what!
Ronnie Allen is sick, very sick as a matter of fact. He not only has diabetes,
but there are some other health problems. To take away the fact that he is one
of, if not THE best one-pocket player of all times is shameful and disgusting.
If there was ever a perfect example of a sucker punch, it comes in the form of
Lou's post about Ronnie Allen. You may not think he is worthy of HOF, but you
must have been living in a cave your whole life if you are not aware that he is
a champion one-pocket player, maybe the best one-pocket player on the face of
the earth.
JAM
JAM
2004-03-01 22:30:45 UTC
Permalink
Lou posts: [snip]

Thanks, Lou, for waiting for me to return until you sucker-punched Ronnie
Allen, again.

I don't know where you were when Ronnie Allen was in his prime, but you must
have not been aware of his skills. And for you to say "when Ronnie Allen was
in his prime, not many people played one-pocket," did you ever hear of
Cornbread Red and the Squirrel?

I know many people who are playing one-pocket today, professional players who
have been around and recognize talent, who would disagree with your blessed
"opinion," which you are entitled to, about Ronnie Allen.

What is laughable is how you repeatedly post that nobody wanted to buy an
elderly Ronnie Allen -- sorry, Ronnie -- in a calcutta a few years ago. The
man has aged, Lou. He is sick. Of course, he is unable to play one-pocket at
the same level he was when he was hitting 'em. That is a given.

Again, I repeat, Lou, that Ronnie Allen is one of -- if not -- THE best
one-pocket player on the face of the earth, and this is MY opinion, Lou, and I
think your logic and reasoning, coming from somebody whose only claim to fame
is he beat Efren one time, stinks to high heaven. Again, just my opinion, Lou.

Have a nice day, Pal!

JAM
lfigueroa
2004-03-01 22:52:33 UTC
Permalink
My, we are self centered, aren't we? Actually, I just got back from DC,
ergo, the delay. Hard though it will be for you to believe -- it ain't
all about you.

And try to follow along -- the remark about the calcutta was in response
to your statements about his game in the here and now. I'm aware he's older
now and not in his prime. But you're trying to have it both ways. So which
is it? Is he over the hill now or is he ..."THE best one-pocket player on
the face of the earth..." "bar none"

And I still don't understand what my game (or anyone else's) has to do with
having an opinion about another player. I mean, look at you -- you can't
play a lick, but that sure doesn't stop you from running your mouth.

Lou Figueroa
Post by JAM
Lou posts: [snip]
Thanks, Lou, for waiting for me to return until you sucker-punched Ronnie
Allen, again.
I don't know where you were when Ronnie Allen was in his prime, but you must
have not been aware of his skills. And for you to say "when Ronnie Allen was
in his prime, not many people played one-pocket," did you ever hear of
Cornbread Red and the Squirrel?
I know many people who are playing one-pocket today, professional players who
have been around and recognize talent, who would disagree with your blessed
"opinion," which you are entitled to, about Ronnie Allen.
What is laughable is how you repeatedly post that nobody wanted to buy an
elderly Ronnie Allen -- sorry, Ronnie -- in a calcutta a few years ago.
The
Post by JAM
man has aged, Lou. He is sick. Of course, he is unable to play one-pocket at
the same level he was when he was hitting 'em. That is a given.
Again, I repeat, Lou, that Ronnie Allen is one of -- if not -- THE best
one-pocket player on the face of the earth, and this is MY opinion, Lou, and I
think your logic and reasoning, coming from somebody whose only claim to fame
is he beat Efren one time, stinks to high heaven. Again, just my opinion, Lou.
Have a nice day, Pal!
JAM
JAM
2004-03-01 23:06:32 UTC
Permalink
Lou draws the line in the sand: "I mean, look at you -- you can't play a
lick, but that sure doesn't stop you from running your mouth."

Well, I have to disagree with your "opinion" that I can't play a lick. In
fact, I don't think you have ever seen me shoot. I ain't no Keith McCready or
a Mr. Wannabee One-Pocket Champion, but I can sure as hell hold my own on any
bar box at any time even today.

I'm not interested in being a "good" pool player anymore, Lou. I really don't
have the time to devote to advancing my level of play anymore. I do, however,
enjoy the wonderful world of pocket billiards, and because of my relationship
with KM, I have taken on a renewed interest in the sport.

Yep, life is sweet at the Malloy Ranch, and I am truly blessed.

JAM
lfigueroa
2004-03-02 02:03:49 UTC
Permalink
Give me a break. You can't play a lick and you know it -- I don't have
you see you shoot. You don't have an interest in getting better because you
couldn't do it, like a million others. But you sure can run your mouth.
How did you put it? Oh yes:

"You're pretty good at hurling insults to those whose talent exceed yours."

HA HA HA

And oh yeah, living with Keith McCready, worrying about getting $5K out of
an ATM -- FOR A RING GAME -- is Heaven on Earth!

HA HA HA HA

Lou Figueroa
you crack me up
Post by JAM
Lou draws the line in the sand: "I mean, look at you -- you can't play a
lick, but that sure doesn't stop you from running your mouth."
Well, I have to disagree with your "opinion" that I can't play a lick. In
fact, I don't think you have ever seen me shoot. I ain't no Keith McCready or
a Mr. Wannabee One-Pocket Champion, but I can sure as hell hold my own on any
bar box at any time even today.
I'm not interested in being a "good" pool player anymore, Lou. I really don't
have the time to devote to advancing my level of play anymore. I do, however,
enjoy the wonderful world of pocket billiards, and because of my relationship
with KM, I have taken on a renewed interest in the sport.
Yep, life is sweet at the Malloy Ranch, and I am truly blessed.
JAM
Mark0
2004-03-02 00:39:03 UTC
Permalink
Waiter!! More popcorn please.

MArk0
Post by lfigueroa
My, we are self centered, aren't we? Actually, I just got back from DC,
ergo, the delay. Hard though it will be for you to believe -- it ain't
all about you.
And try to follow along -- the remark about the calcutta was in response
to your statements about his game in the here and now. I'm aware he's older
now and not in his prime. But you're trying to have it both ways. So which
is it? Is he over the hill now or is he ..."THE best one-pocket player on
the face of the earth..." "bar none"
And I still don't understand what my game (or anyone else's) has to do with
having an opinion about another player. I mean, look at you -- you can't
play a lick, but that sure doesn't stop you from running your mouth.
Lou Figueroa
Post by JAM
Lou posts: [snip]
Thanks, Lou, for waiting for me to return until you sucker-punched Ronnie
Allen, again.
I don't know where you were when Ronnie Allen was in his prime, but you
must
Post by JAM
have not been aware of his skills. And for you to say "when Ronnie
Allen
Post by lfigueroa
was
Post by JAM
in his prime, not many people played one-pocket," did you ever hear of
Cornbread Red and the Squirrel?
I know many people who are playing one-pocket today, professional
players
Post by lfigueroa
who
Post by JAM
have been around and recognize talent, who would disagree with your
blessed
Post by JAM
"opinion," which you are entitled to, about Ronnie Allen.
What is laughable is how you repeatedly post that nobody wanted to buy an
elderly Ronnie Allen -- sorry, Ronnie -- in a calcutta a few years ago.
The
Post by JAM
man has aged, Lou. He is sick. Of course, he is unable to play
one-pocket at
Post by JAM
the same level he was when he was hitting 'em. That is a given.
Again, I repeat, Lou, that Ronnie Allen is one of -- if not -- THE best
one-pocket player on the face of the earth, and this is MY opinion, Lou,
and I
Post by JAM
think your logic and reasoning, coming from somebody whose only claim to
fame
Post by JAM
is he beat Efren one time, stinks to high heaven. Again, just my
opinion,
Post by lfigueroa
Lou.
Post by JAM
Have a nice day, Pal!
JAM
lfigueroa
2004-03-02 02:07:10 UTC
Permalink
I'm tired of playing nice. Better fire it up, Mark0.

Lou Figueroa
Post by Mark0
Waiter!! More popcorn please.
MArk0
Post by lfigueroa
My, we are self centered, aren't we? Actually, I just got back from DC,
ergo, the delay. Hard though it will be for you to believe -- it ain't
all about you.
And try to follow along -- the remark about the calcutta was in response
to your statements about his game in the here and now. I'm aware he's
older
Post by lfigueroa
now and not in his prime. But you're trying to have it both ways. So
which
Post by lfigueroa
is it? Is he over the hill now or is he ..."THE best one-pocket player on
the face of the earth..." "bar none"
And I still don't understand what my game (or anyone else's) has to do
with
Post by lfigueroa
having an opinion about another player. I mean, look at you -- you
can't
Post by lfigueroa
play a lick, but that sure doesn't stop you from running your mouth.
Lou Figueroa
Post by JAM
Lou posts: [snip]
Thanks, Lou, for waiting for me to return until you sucker-punched
Ronnie
Post by lfigueroa
Post by JAM
Allen, again.
I don't know where you were when Ronnie Allen was in his prime, but you
must
Post by JAM
have not been aware of his skills. And for you to say "when Ronnie
Allen
Post by lfigueroa
was
Post by JAM
in his prime, not many people played one-pocket," did you ever hear of
Cornbread Red and the Squirrel?
I know many people who are playing one-pocket today, professional
players
Post by lfigueroa
who
Post by JAM
have been around and recognize talent, who would disagree with your
blessed
Post by JAM
"opinion," which you are entitled to, about Ronnie Allen.
What is laughable is how you repeatedly post that nobody wanted to buy
an
Post by lfigueroa
Post by JAM
elderly Ronnie Allen -- sorry, Ronnie -- in a calcutta a few years ago.
The
Post by JAM
man has aged, Lou. He is sick. Of course, he is unable to play
one-pocket at
Post by JAM
the same level he was when he was hitting 'em. That is a given.
Again, I repeat, Lou, that Ronnie Allen is one of -- if not -- THE best
one-pocket player on the face of the earth, and this is MY opinion, Lou,
and I
Post by JAM
think your logic and reasoning, coming from somebody whose only claim to
fame
Post by JAM
is he beat Efren one time, stinks to high heaven. Again, just my
opinion,
Post by lfigueroa
Lou.
Post by JAM
Have a nice day, Pal!
JAM
JAM
2004-03-02 11:11:48 UTC
Permalink
Lou posts: "I'm tired of playing nice."

Your true personality, Lou. You are an RSB NG antagonist and a pool player who
will NEVER play as well as those you sucker-punch.

Everybody has their niche, Lou. You may never play pool at the level of those
you criticize, but you certainly have attained the status of a nit, a guy who
sits on the sidelines and can only dream of what it is like to be a champion
and attacks those who are champions. Yep, your niche, Lou, is being able to
post your so-called "opinions." You're pretty damn good at that, but your
"opinions," Lou, are self-serving sucker-punches aimed at provoking others.

You're a champion, Lou, for what it's worth, a champion who is only capable of
beating Larry Nevel on an off day.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Hey, Lou, I beat Willie Mosconi and Nick Varner. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

JAM
Patrick Johnson
2004-03-02 14:00:23 UTC
Permalink
... You are an RSB NG antagonist and a pool player who
will NEVER play as well as those you sucker-punch.
How does it feel to know you'll NEVER play as well as Lou?

Pat Johnson
Chicago
JAM
2004-03-02 14:17:10 UTC
Permalink
Monkey Doctor posts to JAM: "How does it feel to know you'll NEVER play as
well as Lou?"

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeere's PATRICK!!!!

I'm not too sure of that, Patrick Johnson. I think I've got more heart in my
little pinky than your tag-team buddy, Lou.

"As well as Lou"? HAHAHAHAHAHA! How "well" do you think Lou plays, Patrick?
Do you mean in a tournament match where luck can enter into the mix, where
topnotch players get beat by lobsters like Lou all the time?

I'd like to see the Monkey Scribe play on his own dough for a dime a rattle
against my horse. He doesn't have the balls or the heart to step up. Yep,
he's a wannabe champion nit who, oddly enough, lives in the same region of the
country as a crackpot.

JAM
Patrick Johnson
2004-03-02 14:30:36 UTC
Permalink
... "How does it feel to know you'll NEVER play as
well as Lou?"
... I think I've got more heart in my
little pinky than your tag-team buddy, Lou.
I'd like to see the Monkey Scribe play on his own dough for a dime a rattle
against my horse. He doesn't have the balls or the heart to step up.
LOL. You've got more heart, but your horse has to play for you? Sounds
to me like Lou scares you.

(My horse can beat your horse...)
Pat Johnson
Chicago
JAM
2004-03-02 14:37:37 UTC
Permalink
Patrick Johnson posts: "My horse can beat your horse..."

Do you honestly think in your right mind, Monkey Doctor, that I only have one
horse in my stable?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

It's post time!

JAM
lfigueroa
2004-03-02 14:51:07 UTC
Permalink
lol. you back someone and that give you big balls? Here, let's try that
"cast the first stone" technique again,shall we?

How well do you think JAM plays? I'd like to see Monkey Typist play on her
own dough for a dime a rattle against Lou. She doesn't have the balls to
step up. Yep, she's just a harpie groupie who, oddly enough, lives in the
same region of the country as a crackpot.

Lou Figueroa
happy to be a lobster who plays
just good enough to ruin a pro's day :-)
Post by JAM
Monkey Doctor posts to JAM: "How does it feel to know you'll NEVER play as
well as Lou?"
Heeeeeeeeeeeeeere's PATRICK!!!!
I'm not too sure of that, Patrick Johnson. I think I've got more heart in my
little pinky than your tag-team buddy, Lou.
"As well as Lou"? HAHAHAHAHAHA! How "well" do you think Lou plays, Patrick?
Do you mean in a tournament match where luck can enter into the mix, where
topnotch players get beat by lobsters like Lou all the time?
I'd like to see the Monkey Scribe play on his own dough for a dime a rattle
against my horse. He doesn't have the balls or the heart to step up.
Yep,
Post by JAM
he's a wannabe champion nit who, oddly enough, lives in the same region of the
country as a crackpot.
JAM
JAM
2004-03-02 15:40:38 UTC
Permalink
Monkey Scribe posts: "happy to be a lobster who plays just good enough to ruin
a pro's day :-)"

I'm happy for you, Lou. I'm happy to be a railbird. Beating you wouldn't do
it for me.

However, taking your dough would give me pleasure, immense pleasure, just to
watch your trembling hands as you shoot on YOUR own cheese, not someone else's,
and then when the dim-witted look of a trapped animal spreads across your mug
as you see your game tumble to the ground, you will get smacked in the face
hard because, in reality, you ain't got no heart.

Lobster Lou. Hey, I kind of like that handle. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Only
capable of beating a pro on their off day, but loves to sucker-punch the greats
of this sport on a HOF thread.

JAM
Patrick Johnson
2004-03-02 16:29:40 UTC
Permalink
... Beating you wouldn't do it for me.
Yeah, right.

So Lou shouldn't say anything negative about pros because he only beats
them sometimes. But we should continue to hear whatever annoying drivel
comes out of your mouth (even though you couldn't beat Lou on the best
day of your life) because your boyfriend lets you hang out with him and
his pro pool friends (but you're not a wannabe groupie).

Complicated, but I think I get it.

Pat Johnson
Chicago
JAM
2004-03-02 19:19:33 UTC
Permalink
The Monkey Doctor fumbles: "So Lou shouldn't say anything negative about pros
because he only beats them sometimes."

BINGO, Pat! Lou is jealous of pros because he will never achieve their status.
To compensate for his self-inferiority complex, he enjoys sucker-punching those
who have mastered the game.

What is despicable is when he does it Ronnie Allen, who is in his seventies.
His intentionally cruel posts are vile and outrageous.

And for the record, Patrick, anybody who knows me and Ronnie Allen and our past
history knows that I have had a few unpleasant encounters with RA, but that
still does not take away the fact that the man is a one-pocket machine and
that, during his heyday, he was one of -- if not -- THE best in the world.

Patrick continues: "But we should continue to hear whatever annoying drivel
comes out of your mouth ... because your boyfriend lets you hang out with him
and
his pro pool friends (but you're not a wannabe groupie)."

The "groupie" thing cracks me up, Patrick, especially after my last birthday.
If an old gal like me can be thought of as a "groupie," I guess I should be
flattered.

There's a little word that would take care of this dilemma for you, Patrick.
It's called "plonk." In fact, you had already plonked me many months ago,
according to your very own post(s).

Does that mean that you are a wannabe flame writer?

JAM
lfigueroa
2004-03-02 21:10:26 UTC
Permalink
You couldn't beat me. Period. So it's not a question of whether it would
"do it" for you.

And, in all the years I've been playing, I've been staked, maybe three
times. The rest of the time I play on my own money, modest stakes, though
they be.

And, I don't remember seeing you in Chicago when I played Larry. So how is
it you know he was having an off day?

Tsk, tsk. Talk about embellishments, you little sucker-puncher, you.

Lou Figueroa
Post by JAM
Monkey Scribe posts: "happy to be a lobster who plays just good enough to ruin
a pro's day :-)"
I'm happy for you, Lou. I'm happy to be a railbird. Beating you wouldn't do
it for me.
However, taking your dough would give me pleasure, immense pleasure, just to
watch your trembling hands as you shoot on YOUR own cheese, not someone else's,
and then when the dim-witted look of a trapped animal spreads across your mug
as you see your game tumble to the ground, you will get smacked in the face
hard because, in reality, you ain't got no heart.
Lobster Lou. Hey, I kind of like that handle. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Only
Post by JAM
capable of beating a pro on their off day, but loves to sucker-punch the greats
of this sport on a HOF thread.
JAM
Vader93490
2004-03-02 20:31:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by JAM
I'd like to see the Monkey Scribe play on his own dough for a dime a rattle
against my horse.
JAM
A side note from an observer....

IMO, this might (and I emphasize the word "might") be an interesting match-up.
Surely Lou is up to playing, if I remember correctly what he said some months
back regarding Keith McCready, a "third-tier professional" at a dime a game,
even if he is, in his own personal estimation, an amateur. I would think that
if he holds a victory over the likes of Larry Nevel, who is indeed a great
player himself and fared decently against a hall of famer like Efren Reyes and,
IIRC, beat Mark Wilson recently at a 1p event, that Lou would have no qualms
about matching up with Keith at a "dime a rattle".

So, if Keith and Lou are indeed going to match up, what would the game of
choice be? I'm guessing 1p, or perhaps some 9-ball? Or maybe even both?
Maybe even 14.1?

I know that Keith is a great player, is still a force to be reckoned with and
IMO, not a "third-tier professional" by any means. Likewise, from what I've
seen on here, perhaps Lou is a good player as well. I say "perhaps" because
I've personally not seen Lou play (nothing personal, Lou).

So if these two are indeed going to match up at some point down the road, let's
get it on already. As I said, it *might* be an interesting game.
JAM
2004-03-02 20:39:48 UTC
Permalink
Vader posts: "So, if Keith and Lou are indeed going to match up, what would
the game of choice be?"

ANYTHING Lou wants, long-rack bumps, short-rack bumps, one-pocket, 9-ball, or
14.1.

Lou may have a rude awakening when he sees his "third-tier horse" in action,
and maybe, just maybe, Lou will anticipate KM will have an "off day." He is
incapable of beating a champion player on a good day and relishes in the fact
that he beat one champion pool player named Larry Nevel on an off day, and in a
tournament at that.

He's pretty good at sucker-punching. Let's see him put his money where his
mouth is.

JAM
pltrgyst
2004-03-02 14:16:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by JAM
Everybody has their niche, Lou. You may never play pool at the level of those
you criticize, but you certainly have attained the status of a nit, a guy who
sits on the sidelines and can only dream of what it is like to be a champion
and attacks those who are champions. Yep, your niche, Lou, is being able to
post your so-called "opinions." You're pretty damn good at that, but your
"opinions," Lou, are self-serving sucker-punches aimed at provoking others.
Lou's opinions were well-reasoned and contained no personal attacks
upon anyone to this reader's eye. It is contributions like his that
are the lifeblood of fan interest in any sport -- whether Ruth was a
better home run hittet than Barry Bonds, whether Bill Tilden could
give Pete Sampras a match, etc.

By your standards, JAM, every sportswriter and every sports fan in
America is a "self-serving sucker puncher." If you had your way, all
discussion of sport -- and all professional sport itself -- would die.

Why not go hang around rec.sport.tennis or, better yet,
rec.autos.sport.f1, for a couple of weeks and see what it's like in
places where more ordinary and less-caring, mostly non-participative
fans gather. It might open your eyes to just how well-reasoned
arguments and opinions, like Lou's, should be appreciated -- and
perhaps countered, without personal attacks -- rather than
denigrated.

-- Larry
Patrick Johnson
2004-03-02 14:19:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by pltrgyst
Why not go hang around rec.sport.tennis or, better yet,
rec.autos.sport.f1, for a couple of weeks
You misspelled "decades".

pj
chgo
JAM
2004-03-02 14:31:38 UTC
Permalink
Larry posts to JAM: "Lou's opinions were well-reasoned and contained no
personal attacks upon anyone to this reader's eye."

Well, Larry, I'm not going to bother to cut-and-paste all of the niceties
written by Lou.

Larry continues: "By your standards, JAM, every sportswriter and every sports
fan in America is a 'self-serving sucker puncher.' If you had your way, all
discussion of sport -- and all professional sport itself -- would die."

Larry, comparing Lou to a sportswriter is like comparing Icabod Crane to Paul
Revere.

There was no "discussion of sport" when Lou posted about Ronnie Allen not being
picked in a calcutta 2 yeasr ago. RA is in his seventies now. How will Lou be
playing in his seventies, or any of us, for that matter?

Mike Lebron isn't shooting much these days. Last time I saw him play was
against KM in a tournament, Atlantic City 10-Ball Challenge, I believe, subject
to check, and Mike's back was really very sore and he had trouble bending over
to make shots. Would I desire to buy him in a calcutta?

Remember, Mike was 54 when he won the U.S. Open. Mike still enjoys pool to the
fullest. I see him at almost every single event I go to. He loves to sweat
the good matches.

It is disgusting that Lou posts about Ronnie Allen in a Hall of Fame thread
with the sole intention of discrediting the man for his pool-playing
capabilities, denying the fact that Ronnie Allen is one of -- IF NOT -- the
best one-pocket player on the face of the earth.

When RA was hitting 'em, I can think of no pool player on the face of the earth
who would desire to play him even one-pocket.

JAM
lfigueroa
2004-03-02 14:48:39 UTC
Permalink
Is this supposed to be some kind of news flash? That I am not and will not
ever have a pool groupie of my own? Of course, then I won't have dumped
people all over the country either. I won't have scammed people everywhere.
I won't have outstanding markers from coast-to-coast. And I won't be keep
my SO sitting on the rail for 10 hours at a stretch to win a lousy $1000.

And just for the record, I didn't bring up anything. You brought up Efren
and Pat brought up Larry Nevel. But I do occasionally put my cue together
and play against the best players in the world in open tournaments.
Sometimes I beat them :-) That's a pretty fine accomplishment for an
amateur player and but an achievement YOU will never experience. It seems
to me that the only person who "sits on the sidelines" (for hours at a
stretch :-) is you. So before you cast that first stone, think about it:
You are an RSB NG antagonist who will NEVER play as well as those you
sucker-punch.

Lou Figueroa
Post by JAM
Lou posts: "I'm tired of playing nice."
Your true personality, Lou. You are an RSB NG antagonist and a pool player who
will NEVER play as well as those you sucker-punch.
Everybody has their niche, Lou. You may never play pool at the level of those
you criticize, but you certainly have attained the status of a nit, a guy who
sits on the sidelines and can only dream of what it is like to be a champion
and attacks those who are champions. Yep, your niche, Lou, is being able to
post your so-called "opinions." You're pretty damn good at that, but your
"opinions," Lou, are self-serving sucker-punches aimed at provoking others.
You're a champion, Lou, for what it's worth, a champion who is only capable of
beating Larry Nevel on an off day.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Hey, Lou, I beat Willie Mosconi and Nick Varner. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
JAM
ratchet
2004-03-02 16:45:29 UTC
Permalink
Rut Roh Raggy (scooby doo )
Post by Mark0
Waiter!! More popcorn please.
MArk0
Post by lfigueroa
My, we are self centered, aren't we? Actually, I just got back from DC,
ergo, the delay. Hard though it will be for you to believe -- it ain't
all about you.
And try to follow along -- the remark about the calcutta was in response
to your statements about his game in the here and now. I'm aware he's
older
Post by lfigueroa
now and not in his prime. But you're trying to have it both ways. So
which
Post by lfigueroa
is it? Is he over the hill now or is he ..."THE best one-pocket player on
the face of the earth..." "bar none"
And I still don't understand what my game (or anyone else's) has to do
with
Post by lfigueroa
having an opinion about another player. I mean, look at you -- you
can't
Post by lfigueroa
play a lick, but that sure doesn't stop you from running your mouth.
Lou Figueroa
Post by JAM
Lou posts: [snip]
Thanks, Lou, for waiting for me to return until you sucker-punched
Ronnie
Post by lfigueroa
Post by JAM
Allen, again.
I don't know where you were when Ronnie Allen was in his prime, but you
must
Post by JAM
have not been aware of his skills. And for you to say "when Ronnie
Allen
Post by lfigueroa
was
Post by JAM
in his prime, not many people played one-pocket," did you ever hear of
Cornbread Red and the Squirrel?
I know many people who are playing one-pocket today, professional
players
Post by lfigueroa
who
Post by JAM
have been around and recognize talent, who would disagree with your
blessed
Post by JAM
"opinion," which you are entitled to, about Ronnie Allen.
What is laughable is how you repeatedly post that nobody wanted to buy
an
Post by lfigueroa
Post by JAM
elderly Ronnie Allen -- sorry, Ronnie -- in a calcutta a few years ago.
The
Post by JAM
man has aged, Lou. He is sick. Of course, he is unable to play
one-pocket at
Post by JAM
the same level he was when he was hitting 'em. That is a given.
Again, I repeat, Lou, that Ronnie Allen is one of -- if not -- THE best
one-pocket player on the face of the earth, and this is MY opinion, Lou,
and I
Post by JAM
think your logic and reasoning, coming from somebody whose only claim to
fame
Post by JAM
is he beat Efren one time, stinks to high heaven. Again, just my
opinion,
Post by lfigueroa
Lou.
Post by JAM
Have a nice day, Pal!
JAM
Smorgass Bored
2004-03-02 17:54:31 UTC
Permalink
Mark0 ordered:
Waiter !! More popcorn please.


(*<~ Yeah, it's just not as entertaining without popcorn and this
popcorn tastes nasty without 'popcorn salt'.. imo



maybe some anchovies on a Saltine cracker.... and a BEER !

Doug
~>*(((>< Big fish eat Little fish ><)))*<~
Ron Shepard
2004-03-02 04:38:29 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by lfigueroa
And try to follow along -- the remark about the calcutta was in response
to your statements about his game in the here and now.
Ah yes, the meaning of "is" rears its head in the discussion. Does
"is" mean it applies to the "here and now", or does it mean "now and
also in the past" (i.e. "was").

As far as Lou's credentials, I remember that he and John
Collins-Barton split the top two slots of the Chicago RSB
tournament. That's a pretty substantial accomplishement, eh?

$.02 -Ron Shepard <--popping a fresh batch and watching the show
Patrick Johnson
2004-03-01 23:02:37 UTC
Permalink
... your logic and reasoning, coming from somebody whose only claim to fame
is he beat Efren one time, stinks to high heaven.
1. Lou didn't beat Efren (but I saw him beat Larry Nevel, Mike).

2. True, Lou isn't the girlfriend of a famous pool player (that I know
of), so he has no "claim to fame" as impressive as yours, but why does
he need one to have an opinion about Ronnie Allen?

3. Lou is expressing his opinion (without, by the way, saying yours
stinks to high heaven). What does logic and reasoning have to do with it?

4. Your constant carping on anybody who dares to say anything about any
pro without genuflecting is really tiresome. What are you, the tour
groupie?

Pat Johnson
Chicago
JAM
2004-03-01 23:22:11 UTC
Permalink
Patrick, the RSB tag team member, posts to JAM: "...Your constant carping on
anybody who dares to say anything about any pro without genuflecting is really
tiresome. What are you, the tour groupie?"

Nope, not any pro, Patrick. Wrong assumption, as usual, on your part.

If you are attempting to demean me and my integrity by calling me a "tour
groupie," I think your post speaks for itself. I actually resent the remark,
but will overlook it, at this time. If you pursue, however, in this direction,
I will respond appropriately to you.

Larry Nevel is a fine pool player, and anybody who can beat him has to play
strong. But like every other player on the face of the universe, he could have
been having an off day when Lou beat him. I'm not sure who the "Mike" is you
are referring to that Lou beat. Mike Sigel?

And, Patrick Johnson, Lou can have any opinion he desires about Ronnie Allen,
but I think he's sucker-punching Ronnie for posting that nobody wanted to buy
him in a calcutta 2 years ago when Ronnie is in poor health and has advanced in
age.

Whether I am a girlfriend of a player or not, as you put it, Patrick, I am
entitled to point out a sucker punch when I see it.

Patrick, if Lou is "expressing his opinion," I have the same right to express
mine which I will repeat, since you are experiencing difficulties with the
"logic and reasoning."

Lou's statement about Ronnie Allen stinks to high heaven, period, and actually,
now that I think about it, so do you, Monkey Doctor.

JAM
Mark0
2004-03-02 00:42:07 UTC
Permalink
JAM

The reference was to Mike Page (who allegedly keeps stats on all the posters
here for matching up purposes). HTH

Mark0
Post by JAM
Patrick, the RSB tag team member, posts to JAM: "...Your constant carping on
anybody who dares to say anything about any pro without genuflecting is really
tiresome. What are you, the tour groupie?"
Nope, not any pro, Patrick. Wrong assumption, as usual, on your part.
If you are attempting to demean me and my integrity by calling me a "tour
groupie," I think your post speaks for itself. I actually resent the remark,
but will overlook it, at this time. If you pursue, however, in this direction,
I will respond appropriately to you.
Larry Nevel is a fine pool player, and anybody who can beat him has to play
strong. But like every other player on the face of the universe, he could have
been having an off day when Lou beat him. I'm not sure who the "Mike" is you
are referring to that Lou beat. Mike Sigel?
And, Patrick Johnson, Lou can have any opinion he desires about Ronnie Allen,
but I think he's sucker-punching Ronnie for posting that nobody wanted to buy
him in a calcutta 2 years ago when Ronnie is in poor health and has advanced in
age.
Whether I am a girlfriend of a player or not, as you put it, Patrick, I am
entitled to point out a sucker punch when I see it.
Patrick, if Lou is "expressing his opinion," I have the same right to express
mine which I will repeat, since you are experiencing difficulties with the
"logic and reasoning."
Lou's statement about Ronnie Allen stinks to high heaven, period, and actually,
now that I think about it, so do you, Monkey Doctor.
JAM
Michael Page
2004-03-02 01:06:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark0
JAM
The reference was to Mike Page (who allegedly keeps stats on all the posters
here for matching up purposes). HTH
Mark0
Matching up??? No, no, no. It's to keep the running list of who is
and who is not entitled to express an opinion.
Post by Mark0
[...]
lfigueroa
2004-03-02 02:06:38 UTC
Permalink
lol

Lou Figueroa
Post by Michael Page
Post by Mark0
JAM
The reference was to Mike Page (who allegedly keeps stats on all the posters
here for matching up purposes). HTH
Mark0
Matching up??? No, no, no. It's to keep the running list of who is
and who is not entitled to express an opinion.
Post by Mark0
[...]
Mark0
2004-03-02 02:33:11 UTC
Permalink
:O)

Mark0 <--standing by my original assertion
Post by Michael Page
Post by Mark0
JAM
The reference was to Mike Page (who allegedly keeps stats on all the posters
here for matching up purposes). HTH
Mark0
Matching up??? No, no, no. It's to keep the running list of who is
and who is not entitled to express an opinion.
Post by Mark0
[...]
lfigueroa
2004-03-02 02:06:18 UTC
Permalink
Right. Like we don't resent your remarks?! But we'll all overlook your
remarks, insults, and name calling... for the time being. But if you
persist, I think there are enough of us here that we could pool our
consternation and "respond appropriately" to you.

And who cares what you call "sucker punching"? You've been asked several
times what the term means and you've responded with nothing., Monkey
Typist.

Lou Figueroa
Post by JAM
Patrick, the RSB tag team member, posts to JAM: "...Your constant carping on
anybody who dares to say anything about any pro without genuflecting is really
tiresome. What are you, the tour groupie?"
Nope, not any pro, Patrick. Wrong assumption, as usual, on your part.
If you are attempting to demean me and my integrity by calling me a "tour
groupie," I think your post speaks for itself. I actually resent the remark,
but will overlook it, at this time. If you pursue, however, in this direction,
I will respond appropriately to you.
Larry Nevel is a fine pool player, and anybody who can beat him has to play
strong. But like every other player on the face of the universe, he could have
been having an off day when Lou beat him. I'm not sure who the "Mike" is you
are referring to that Lou beat. Mike Sigel?
And, Patrick Johnson, Lou can have any opinion he desires about Ronnie Allen,
but I think he's sucker-punching Ronnie for posting that nobody wanted to buy
him in a calcutta 2 years ago when Ronnie is in poor health and has advanced in
age.
Whether I am a girlfriend of a player or not, as you put it, Patrick, I am
entitled to point out a sucker punch when I see it.
Patrick, if Lou is "expressing his opinion," I have the same right to express
mine which I will repeat, since you are experiencing difficulties with the
"logic and reasoning."
Lou's statement about Ronnie Allen stinks to high heaven, period, and actually,
now that I think about it, so do you, Monkey Doctor.
JAM
JAM
2004-03-02 09:31:12 UTC
Permalink
Lou posts: "But if you persist, I think there are enough of us here that we
could pool our consternation and 'respond appropriately' to you."

You know, Lou, if you need back-up and tag-team assistance, by all means, be my
guest. Go ahead, MAKE MY DAY! You won't see me backing down from you or your
NG friends.

I have been around this pool world long enough to recognize a nit.

You write your embellished stories about others, trying to pump your pompous
ass up by sucker-punching them. The flavor of the month for Lou is Ronnie
Allen. Last month, it was Keith McCready. Who will you target next, Lou?

I could give a flying fuck what you think about my playing capabilities, Monkey
Scribe, and since you have never seen me play, your post reveals the asshole
that you truly are. How mistaken I was when I met the nice-looking gentleman
at DCC. Looks can be deceiving because, inside, Lou, you are pretty damn ugly,
sad to say.

I have no idea what you mean when you say take $5K out of an ATM machine. What
Keith McCready and I do on the road, at tournaments, and elsewhere doesn't
affect your life. So where, pray tell, are you coming from with this
statement?

I can say this, though, Lou. I will NEVER carry that much money on my person,
unless it was freshly won, because of my friends getting robbed, i.e., Tony
Watson, Ron Wiseman, Shannon Daulton.
I am a female and wouldn't have much of a chance against as thug. I like to
keep my money in the bank. I don't carry my life savings in my pocket and
never have, a trait of many a pool player. My pockets ain't that deep.

JAM
Ron Shepard
2004-03-02 14:17:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by JAM
You write your embellished stories about others, trying to pump your pompous
ass up by sucker-punching them. The flavor of the month for Lou is Ronnie
Allen. Last month, it was Keith McCready.
I thought last month it was St. Louie Roberts in the hot seat? Did
I miss an issue?

$.02 -Ron Shepard <--with so many sucker-punchers ((C),(R),TM)
pumping up their pompous asses ((C),(R),TM),
it's hard to keep up with the score :-)
JAM
2004-03-02 14:20:20 UTC
Permalink
Ron posts: "I thought last month it was St. Louie Roberts in the hot seat?
Did I miss an issue?"

No, Ron, the Louie Roberts issue was before Keith McCready. There was an
addendum to the Louie Roberts issue, though, in the form of a crackpot from the
same region of the country where Lou lives.

JAM
pltrgyst
2004-03-02 14:20:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by JAM
I am a female and wouldn't have much of a chance against as thug.
Sure you would. Just carry a keyboard and printout of a few of your
rancorous posts -- I guarantee no one will want to come within a
hundred feet of you.

-- Larry
JAM
2004-03-02 14:33:15 UTC
Permalink
Larry posts to JAM: "Sure you would. Just carry a keyboard and printout of a
few of your rancorous posts -- I guarantee no one will want to come within a
hundred feet of you."

[SWAT] Just another annoying gnat in my ear.

JAM
lfigueroa
2004-03-02 14:46:06 UTC
Permalink
Embellished stories? You want to go there again? Fine with me -- believe
whatever fairy tale he's blowing up your ass. I was there, you weren't.

And yah, yah, yah, "sucker punching" again. Now there's a new one. Who are
you and Keith sucker punching in your next column. You did a fine job on
Louie Roberts. Who's next, ya little sucker punchers?

And gee, for 138 IQ, you're pretty dense. The $5K out of the ATM is what
you and Keith bickered about while I was standing there after Rob Syroka
asked if Keith wanted to get in the second ring game at the DCC. There's
heaven on earth for you.

Lou Figueroa
Post by JAM
Lou posts: "But if you persist, I think there are enough of us here that we
could pool our consternation and 'respond appropriately' to you."
You know, Lou, if you need back-up and tag-team assistance, by all means, be my
guest. Go ahead, MAKE MY DAY! You won't see me backing down from you or your
NG friends.
I have been around this pool world long enough to recognize a nit.
You write your embellished stories about others, trying to pump your pompous
ass up by sucker-punching them. The flavor of the month for Lou is Ronnie
Allen. Last month, it was Keith McCready. Who will you target next, Lou?
I could give a flying fuck what you think about my playing capabilities, Monkey
Scribe, and since you have never seen me play, your post reveals the asshole
that you truly are. How mistaken I was when I met the nice-looking gentleman
at DCC. Looks can be deceiving because, inside, Lou, you are pretty damn ugly,
sad to say.
I have no idea what you mean when you say take $5K out of an ATM machine.
What
Post by JAM
Keith McCready and I do on the road, at tournaments, and elsewhere doesn't
affect your life. So where, pray tell, are you coming from with this
statement?
I can say this, though, Lou. I will NEVER carry that much money on my person,
unless it was freshly won, because of my friends getting robbed, i.e., Tony
Watson, Ron Wiseman, Shannon Daulton.
I am a female and wouldn't have much of a chance against as thug. I like to
keep my money in the bank. I don't carry my life savings in my pocket and
never have, a trait of many a pool player. My pockets ain't that deep.
JAM
JAM
2004-03-02 15:30:58 UTC
Permalink
Lou posts to JAM: "The $5K out of the ATM is what you and Keith bickered about
while I was standing there after Rob Syroka asked if Keith wanted to get in the
second ring game at the DCC."

Gee, Lou, you chose to use the word "bickered." Typical of your embellished
writings.

I don't recall any bicker between me and KM when you approached us after KM had
just lost to George Breedlove on the TV table where the lights were hot as
hell, as KM was already steaming with a temperature from the flu and couldn't
wait to get back in the room.

And as he was racing to get to the elevator to go lay down in bed, guess who
pops up?

YOU! You've got great timing, Lou. What a pleasurable encounter for us at the
DCC, sick as we could be, losing on the TV table to George Breedlove, and then
running into Monkey Scribe for the first time.

JAM
lfigueroa
2004-03-02 21:09:18 UTC
Permalink
You two went back and forth and argued about it. You can call it whatever
you
want.

And I only introduced myself because I said I would. Believe me, it wasn't
the highlight of my day.

Lou Figueroa
went and washed his hands immediately thereafter
Post by JAM
Lou posts to JAM: "The $5K out of the ATM is what you and Keith bickered about
while I was standing there after Rob Syroka asked if Keith wanted to get in the
second ring game at the DCC."
Gee, Lou, you chose to use the word "bickered." Typical of your embellished
writings.
I don't recall any bicker between me and KM when you approached us after KM had
just lost to George Breedlove on the TV table where the lights were hot as
hell, as KM was already steaming with a temperature from the flu and couldn't
wait to get back in the room.
And as he was racing to get to the elevator to go lay down in bed, guess who
pops up?
YOU! You've got great timing, Lou. What a pleasurable encounter for us at the
DCC, sick as we could be, losing on the TV table to George Breedlove, and then
running into Monkey Scribe for the first time.
JAM
Ron Shepard
2004-03-02 04:47:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by JAM
And, Patrick Johnson, Lou can have any opinion he desires about Ronnie Allen,
but I think he's sucker-punching Ronnie for posting that nobody wanted to buy
him in a calcutta 2 years ago when Ronnie is in poor health and has advanced in
age.
How old is Ronnie Allen?

$.02 -Ron Shepard
Eddie
2004-02-25 00:51:31 UTC
Permalink
down with total secrecy.
up with groundswell movement.

Eddie in Detroit
Post by Grady
I'd like to see the results of all the voting for this year's and any
other year's HOF procedures.Billiards Digest and the BCA do things in
far too secretive a manner for my tastes.
It's about time that a really qualified panel of dignified experts,
100 per cent excluding industry magazine editors, was formed, for the
purpose of selecting HOF inductees.
This post isn't about me. I've come to the point where I could care
less about the machinations and deceit of the BCA and BD too, for that
matter.No, friends and pool lovers, this post is about "Bugs", Ronnie
Allen and Jersey Red not being in the HOF.
There exists no rationalization or sound basis for this. In fact, it's
insulting to have the BCA and BD love how Johnston City, gambling and
guys like "Bugs", Red and Ronnie played and excited thousands of fans
and then exclude them and their ilk from the HOF.
It's a disgrace, ladies and gentlemen and I'd like to begin a
groundswell movement to: a. Get these guys and some others inducted,
as they so richly deserve and b.Get rid of the 6 to 8 man comittee
that currently, in total secrecy as far as I know,conducts highly
suspicious voting for the HOF.
Thanks for your kind attention, Grady
Sherm Adamson
2004-02-25 03:06:25 UTC
Permalink
The "Hall of Fame" vote is not all that secret! The ballots go out to all of
the BCA members of a certain level or higher. I'm not sure where the
breaking point is (in BCA membership levels) but I received ballots each
year and voted for the HOF candidates. Of course the ballots them selves
were secret, but aren't all ballots secret?

Sherm

--
just more hot air! 8^)

Sherm
aka "cuesmith" in yahoo
Sherm Custom Billiard Cues by,
Sherman Adamson
3352 Nine Mile Rd., Cincinnati Ohio 45255
Shop (513)553-2172, Cell (513)509-9152
http://www.shermcue.com Over 20 years experience
almost a decade in "The American Cuemakers Association"
Post by Eddie
down with total secrecy.
up with groundswell movement.
Eddie in Detroit
Post by Grady
I'd like to see the results of all the voting for this year's and any
other year's HOF procedures.Billiards Digest and the BCA do things in
far too secretive a manner for my tastes.
It's about time that a really qualified panel of dignified experts,
100 per cent excluding industry magazine editors, was formed, for the
purpose of selecting HOF inductees.
This post isn't about me. I've come to the point where I could care
less about the machinations and deceit of the BCA and BD too, for that
matter.No, friends and pool lovers, this post is about "Bugs", Ronnie
Allen and Jersey Red not being in the HOF.
There exists no rationalization or sound basis for this. In fact, it's
insulting to have the BCA and BD love how Johnston City, gambling and
guys like "Bugs", Red and Ronnie played and excited thousands of fans
and then exclude them and their ilk from the HOF.
It's a disgrace, ladies and gentlemen and I'd like to begin a
groundswell movement to: a. Get these guys and some others inducted,
as they so richly deserve and b.Get rid of the 6 to 8 man comittee
that currently, in total secrecy as far as I know,conducts highly
suspicious voting for the HOF.
Thanks for your kind attention, Grady
Watchez
2004-02-25 04:08:26 UTC
Permalink
No Sherm, each year for say the Baseball or Football HOF the total number
of votes each player receives is posted. In fact, I know in Baseball it is
stated which person voted yes or no on each and every player.
Post by Sherm Adamson
The "Hall of Fame" vote is not all that secret! The ballots go out to all of
the BCA members of a certain level or higher. I'm not sure where the
breaking point is (in BCA membership levels) but I received ballots each
year and voted for the HOF candidates. Of course the ballots them selves
were secret, but aren't all ballots secret?
Sherm
--
just more hot air! 8^)
Sherm
aka "cuesmith" in yahoo
Sherm Custom Billiard Cues by,
Sherman Adamson
3352 Nine Mile Rd., Cincinnati Ohio 45255
Shop (513)553-2172, Cell (513)509-9152
http://www.shermcue.com Over 20 years experience
almost a decade in "The American Cuemakers Association"
Post by Eddie
down with total secrecy.
up with groundswell movement.
Eddie in Detroit
Post by Grady
I'd like to see the results of all the voting for this year's and any
other year's HOF procedures.Billiards Digest and the BCA do things in
far too secretive a manner for my tastes.
It's about time that a really qualified panel of dignified experts,
100 per cent excluding industry magazine editors, was formed, for the
purpose of selecting HOF inductees.
This post isn't about me. I've come to the point where I could care
less about the machinations and deceit of the BCA and BD too, for that
matter.No, friends and pool lovers, this post is about "Bugs", Ronnie
Allen and Jersey Red not being in the HOF.
There exists no rationalization or sound basis for this. In fact, it's
insulting to have the BCA and BD love how Johnston City, gambling and
guys like "Bugs", Red and Ronnie played and excited thousands of fans
and then exclude them and their ilk from the HOF.
It's a disgrace, ladies and gentlemen and I'd like to begin a
groundswell movement to: a. Get these guys and some others inducted,
as they so richly deserve and b.Get rid of the 6 to 8 man comittee
that currently, in total secrecy as far as I know,conducts highly
suspicious voting for the HOF.
Thanks for your kind attention, Grady
Bob Jewett
2004-02-25 04:43:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grady
I'd like to see the results of all the voting for this year's and any
other year's HOF procedures.Billiards Digest and the BCA do things in
far too secretive a manner for my tastes.
The ballots for this year, if you would like to see them, are
available at:

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As you can see, the counting was done at the USOC. I don't know if
the vote count was released, but sometimes it's better not to know.

Those permitted to vote are BCA Business Members.

Anyone can nominate someone for the HOF, I believe. If you want to
find out how, contact Mike Shamos in Pittsburgh. His phone numbers
and email are available on his resume page:

http://euro.ecom.cmu.edu/people/faculty/mshamos/resshort.htm

(See "Contact Information")
Post by Grady
It's about time that a really qualified panel of dignified experts,
100 per cent excluding industry magazine editors, was formed, for the
purpose of selecting HOF inductees.
I think there's nothing wrong with magazine editors. Well, not
much, anyway. And I think that some of them are far more
qualified to screen nominations than many of the top players.
Post by Grady
This post isn't about me. I've come to the point where I could care
less about the machinations and deceit of the BCA and BD too, for that
matter.No, friends and pool lovers, this post is about "Bugs", Ronnie
Allen and Jersey Red not being in the HOF.
I suspect that "Bugs" has no chance because he does not meet several of
the requirements for "Greatest Player" category. Do you feel that the
requirements should be changed?
Post by Grady
There exists no rationalization or sound basis for this.
See the requirements. Which of them should be changed?
Post by Grady
In fact, it's > insulting to have the BCA and BD love how
Johnston City, gambling and guys like "Bugs", Red and Ronnie
played and excited thousands of fans and then exclude them and
their ilk from the HOF. It's a disgrace, ladies and gentlemen
and I'd like to begin a groundswell movement to: a. Get these
guys and some others inducted, as they so richly deserve and
b.
Get rid of the 6 to 8 man comittee that currently, in total
secrecy as far as I know,conducts highly suspicious voting for
the HOF. Thanks for your kind attention, Grady
Grady, I think your argument will be more effective if you first
learn how things currently work, rather than just guessing.
--
Bob Jewett
http://www.sfbilliards.com/
JAM
2004-02-25 09:53:56 UTC
Permalink
Bob Jewett posts: "I think there's nothing wrong with magazine editors. Well,
not much, anyway. And I think that some of them are far more qualified to
screen nominations than many of the top players."

Great post, BTW, full of helpful information.

A pool magazine, whose publisher is a BCA HOF Committee voting member,
published a feature article about Jose Parica with a view that Jose is in
Efren's shadow.

If the media feels Jose Parica is only a mere shadow of Efren, how can Jose
ever get proper recognition to be considered a candidate in the BCA Hall of
Fame? Anybody who knows Jose -- his peers and friends -- does not feel this
way.

I think there is nothing wrong with magazine editors either, but I do not
believe that some of them "are far more qualified to screen nominations than
many of the top players." I believe some of them are too far removed from the
real pool world.

Here is the point to remember. This is BCA's hall of fame, not the public's.
If the BCA consists of industry and media voting members, they are going to
vote for the candidate who benefits them the most (IMO), plain and simple.

I am not saying Ewa is not worthy because I believe she is, but Allen Hopkins
is LONG OVERDUE. All of his peers, Nick Varner, Jim Rempe, Buddy Hall, et
cetera, are in. What in the world else can Allen Hopkins do that he hasn't
already done?

I spoke to Earl about HOF when I was in Toledo, asking him if he would ever
like to be nominated. From listening to him talk, something he sure is good
at, he feels he's still got some more good times ahead of him and he ain't done
yet.

As far as Ronnie, Bugs, Red, Cornbread, and the rest of the legends of pool in
the United States, they won't benefit any of the Industry and BCA HOF voting
members (IMHO). The BCA cannot change pool's history, and their nonrecognition
of these legends is shameful.

JAM
Ira Lee
2004-02-26 10:04:53 UTC
Permalink
I think that Sang Lee should still be considered for the Hall of Fame
for 3-cushion billiards achievement. He won the National championship
12 times in a row and broke numerous records of Willie Hoppe in the
process. I doubt that Americans will see a greater 3-cushion player
represent the US in a very long time.

He was on the ballot last year.

-Ira
Post by JAM
Bob Jewett posts: "I think there's nothing wrong with magazine editors. Well,
not much, anyway. And I think that some of them are far more qualified to
screen nominations than many of the top players."
Great post, BTW, full of helpful information.
A pool magazine, whose publisher is a BCA HOF Committee voting member,
published a feature article about Jose Parica with a view that Jose is in
Efren's shadow.
If the media feels Jose Parica is only a mere shadow of Efren, how can Jose
ever get proper recognition to be considered a candidate in the BCA Hall of
Fame? Anybody who knows Jose -- his peers and friends -- does not feel this
way.
I think there is nothing wrong with magazine editors either, but I do not
believe that some of them "are far more qualified to screen nominations than
many of the top players." I believe some of them are too far removed from the
real pool world.
Here is the point to remember. This is BCA's hall of fame, not the public's.
If the BCA consists of industry and media voting members, they are going to
vote for the candidate who benefits them the most (IMO), plain and simple.
I am not saying Ewa is not worthy because I believe she is, but Allen Hopkins
is LONG OVERDUE. All of his peers, Nick Varner, Jim Rempe, Buddy Hall, et
cetera, are in. What in the world else can Allen Hopkins do that he hasn't
already done?
I spoke to Earl about HOF when I was in Toledo, asking him if he would ever
like to be nominated. From listening to him talk, something he sure is good
at, he feels he's still got some more good times ahead of him and he ain't done
yet.
As far as Ronnie, Bugs, Red, Cornbread, and the rest of the legends of pool in
the United States, they won't benefit any of the Industry and BCA HOF voting
members (IMHO). The BCA cannot change pool's history, and their nonrecognition
of these legends is shameful.
JAM
JAM
2004-03-02 10:07:21 UTC
Permalink
Ira posts: "I think that Sang Lee should still be considered for the Hall of
Fame
for 3-cushion billiards achievement."

I would be interested in learning more about Sang Lee. Is there a website that
lists some of his accomplishments, Ira?

JAM
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